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Living Life For Others

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I can see where you are coming from, without doubt giving to others, and supporting others, brings meaning to my life.

I think it's only when we give love unconditionally without expectation in return, that we are truly open hearted, and aren't judgemental.

I think so long as we are open to receiving and accepting support, it is a postive thing.

But I can also see where your therapist is coming from, as it is something I am trying to work on.

I read somewhere that people who don't truly love themselves, and don't care for themselves the same way they would another, when they do things for others they act out of fear, to keep them from leaving them, or to gain something else in return, and that isn't who I want to be. I want to love my child and husband unconditionally, but most especially I don't want my child to learn by my example, that they should sacrifice their wants and needs.

It's apparently only when we truly love overselves, that we can truly love another, and when we truly love ourselves then we deserve the same support, and attract those capable of support.

I have a fear of vulnerability, so I am afraid to show my husband I need his support, or to truly accept his love, because I don't truly believe I deserve it. It is something I am trying to change because I don't want to be incapable of truly loving another, or to only give because it gives meaning to my life, or that when I do things for others I do it because I gain something out of it.

I guess it depends on whether we act out of fear or love when we give and receive, and at the moment I act out of fear, and I don't believe that is a good thing. When we live our lives for others are we living a fear based life?

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@Meadowsweet,
I've been taking classes as well, and my experience is very similar. I see people in class but nothing else really happens. For now I'm ok with that as I know that overall it is pushing me in the right direction of becoming more social. I've been taking classes for 4 semesters now and still haven't formed any lasting friendships, but I am becoming more social and functional in public, which is a big plus. (I'm also a bit older than a lot of the other students, so that is part of the problem as well. Most of those just out of high school tend to not really associate with the older students much.)

I think that if you're dealing with suicidal ideation right now, any reason to push yourself forward is good. If you need to live for others right now, then that is perfectly fine. Sometimes we have to take whatever hope we have and just run with it when we're in a bad frame of mind.

I am going to advise staying out of the supporter forums for now. I know I need to take breaks from going over there because it puts me into a bad frame of mind that builds on my self hatred and just fuels the "I am going to be alone for the rest of my life" fire. The truth is that a LOT of supporters only come here when things are very bad and they're desperate to save the relationship as they didn't know the severity of this disorder and didn't bother to learn about it until the relationship took a nosedive. You don't see as many supporters posting about how they were able to make their relationship work and how things are going well. Yes, there are a few positive stories, but many are pleas for help to save a failing relationship. This gives us sufferers a pretty skewed view of things, especially given that many of those supporters have sufferers who deny that they have PTSD or refuse to get help, while here on the sufferer board, most if not all of us are striving to get better in one way or another.
 
Meadowsweet, this is a really good topic and I always enjoy your posts, I can see how much you have to offer. I can relate so much to what you have to say, and where my thoughts are at right now can change and I know that I can feel weaker or stronger at any given time based on some outside circumstances. Even before ptsd for me (or I had in under control-not sure which), I had value for myself for what I did more than who I am, or just being. I think some of this is societal and not even based on having ptsd.

Often men feel successful and confident in their work and supporting their families. If something happens and they loose their job and are in a wheelchair, they feel like a burden and the self esteem plummets. I once had a copy of a survey about what people think of in the shower in the morning. Mens top two were work and sex. Womens were #! -what I need to do for others today )ie, cookies for susies class, soccer practice, take mom to dr., check on uncle joe, card for friend, etc. The second was self emprovement, I need to get to the gym and loose 10 lbs., , get a new hair do, etc. This was from a random study that had nothing to do with ptsd. It was about the difference of men and womens focus on what makes them feel good about themselves.

I really admire people who have a legitimate reason to become dependent on others and not feel a burden, but am not sure that it does not take huge adaptation and acceptance to get to that point. Often I have seen a lot of depression and anger before reaching that goal.. So while I do not want to divert the subject in any way, I just wonder how much is human nature of how we have been raised in society for a starter. Then throwing ptsd into the equation, it multiplies our inabilities to feel deserving and that our presence with others and being in close relationships, or (enhancing others experience through knowing us) without having to do for them excessively is enough.

I do not think there is anything wrong with enjoying doing for others, as long as it does not go against our values or interfere with our integrity, and if we do not put accomodating others before our own needs.

I understand better from your last post, where you state that you are feeling SI, and taking yourself out of the world for now, and doing for others needs to become your primary priority to avoid the thoughts of SI. I can understand this completely. It sounds that you are using your thoughts as a protective factor for yourself at the moment. I hope that you are gentle with yourself on this, and are still able to maintain that hope, even if it is put on the shelf for the moment.

Somewhere inside of me, I feel like damaged goods. I read a forum article last night after reading this post, which helped me to identify this. In some ways, I think I live vicariously through others happiness and the good things that happen to and for them. It is like I am saying, nothing personally good will ever happen for me-I cant follow through to find the happiness and fulfillment in my own life, so I will do what I can to make others more comfortable and happy. Yet I still have these underlying goals that I put on the back burner, and at present have not completely deserted. Such as, a healthy happy partner relationship happens for other people, but will never come my way. I could settle but would rather be alone than compromise my integrity, and possible bring ugly drama. I have the education and experience to do something good still, even with my short comings. Yet whenever I have approached or been there, something has happened that has caused me to feel emotionally defeated. I dont have the confidence or strenght to initiate and follow through with dreams I once had ,and never gamble more than you can afford to loose. Therefore, I leave myself somewhere kind of frozen and just getting by. Since my kids are grown and have no job, I still do for others, but not to the extent that you do.

I am glad that you are going to the class, even if after the hour you leave without reaching out to seek friendship outside of the group. I have done this kind of thing too, and it is awkward as how to strike up a conversation, the rules, not being to forward or to passive. I think somewhere in this we have to challenge whatever that core belief is (mine is feeling like damaged goods) that prevents us from taking the chance of moving forward. I use to not have any problem with this because it was my belief that most of the other people have the same issues of how to get something started-that this is just human. Now I have taken it on and see it as my defect. Thank you for this thread, you have given me so much to think about of my own behavior.

A person in distress will often maintain that distress as it feels safer than the unknown.
 
[quote=" But when I read on the supporter forums, I see alot of victimhood in those who are putting themselves out to live with their partner with PTSD. For me to live as a burden like that, makes me feel more worthless than ever.

.[/quote]

It's not always like that meadowsweet, there's individuals and different characters too, regardless of all dealing with ptsd.

I can tell you that when a sufferer is doimg for themselves and doing good, it brings much joy and pleasure. Keeps me going too. In a way that's also living for others.

If you have positive somatic relationships, those times (course goes up and down) are far from worthless.
Especially when you know the deep holes.

I chose not to live with a sufferer while romantically involved, and after a while he said "you would just end up taking care of me". Well we don't end up taking care of eachother that way.

It's knowing someone thinks of you and is happy that you're good, and there to reach out to, when you're back in hell.
 
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NovemberDark-that is such a good point, both individuals and different characteristics, and that supporters gain pleasure from the sufferer doing good. It must feel wonderful to have that kind of support. I personally think that some of this comes from our past/family of origin/ early experiences and can be hard to shake, even if that is not the cause of ptsd.

For so many years, I did so much for others(siblings, mother) and was so committed to my family (kids and husband), that I put my needs last for so long. When I finally started putting some of my needs first, it was not accepted well. There was actual resentments. I guess even though I had pleasure in doing for others, I allowed myself to be a doormat. When I went down, others that were my focus were not there for me. It may be a distortion that I need to explore, but some or many of those others really prefer me to be down. (Unfortunately, there are family dynamics for some, that prefer to identify the ptsd -er as the identified problem.)As soon as I start showing significant improvement, there has been some punishment to follow, showing me that I do not have the right to my own happiness (outside of doing for others). I am very vulnerable to being guilted into doing for others, and that has been a great tool for those who know this within me. This has left me with feelings of being stuck and accepting it to some degree like Meadowsweet.
 
Brat17 now those sound totally like negative somatic relationships. I hope you find some distance, and make some chosen space for more positive ones.

There was also a point many years ago (I've known this man 15 years now), where he said" I don't care about myself, only about others". That didn't sit right with me at all.

It may also have been a fase of ptsd.
Myself I live with survivor guilt, so many times I recognize it in him too, thinking that you don't deserve good things.
It's a slow process to accept sincere gestures of kindness etc ( specially because it requires trust).

You can't only actively do for other's, that's not interaction.

I've seen my mom give give give and only take care of others. She took care of my dad till he died, I was already gone.

That's when she was practically forced to take care of only herself.

She totally didn't know how ( crazy) but she didn't.It took her a long time ( she came.from an abusive household),
surely there was some somatic trauma transfer.
I didn't grow up in an abusive home. We do take over some of the behaviours they use to cope, for sure.
 
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I read somewhere that people who don't truly love themselves, and don't care for themselves the same way they would another, when they do things for others they act out of fear, to keep them from leaving them, or to gain something else in return, and that isn't who I want to be.

No, that's co-dependent, it's wanting something in return and is a way of trying to control a situation. I disagree that one needs to love themselves - I guess it depends how you view love. But caring for others doesn't mean not caring for yourself. Quite the opposite, I feel like I need to be alive because I would let my children down if I wasn't. I can't do it for myself because there's nothing for me to be alive for without the people I love. So I care for myself on the basis that it makes me better at being there for other people.


I think that if you're dealing with suicidal ideation right now, any reason to push yourself forward is good. If you need to live for others right now, then that is perfectly fine. Sometimes we have to take whatever hope we have and just run with it when we're in a bad frame of mind.

Thank you.

If you have positive somatic relationships, those times (course goes up and down) are far from worthless. Especially when you know the deep holes.

Sorry, i don't understand what you mean by positive somatic relationships?
 
I also disagree with the "you have to love yourself first". I don't do things out of fear or guilt unless I am forced, and then they are dreaded +/or unpleasant.

I guess @Meadowsweet if you are inclined to take to heart the words of others it might help to get sane, unbiased feedback from those who aren't abusive.
 
Co dependent actions are done out of fear or for something in return-I agree. Yet some of those things are so conditioned. We may do things to be approved of or loved, we may do them out of fear to avoid a unpleasant situation. Either way, it is a cost to ourselves.

Other things that are not co dependent-putting family first if that is the job you have agreed to and are happy with (scheduling, cooking, laundry, shopping, chauffeuring, secretarial, accountant, counselor to kids, nurse, tutor, recreation director, soccer mom, etc) I signed up for it and liked it and did not resent it. At some point I wanted more or something else for myself. Making changes in a family to regroup such tasks can be very opposed if others are not on board.

Everytime I see the subject of doing something for nothing in return, I think of true altruism. I know there was a thread on this a long time ago. If doing something for someone else makes you feel good, you are getting something from it.

Wow there is a fine line to finding that balance for many of us. After reading all these posts, Im not sure what would make me happy, what act would be for myself. I like doing for others to and even the job I did was rewarding because it was in the helping field.
 
Everytime I see the subject of doing something for nothing in return, I think of true altruism. I know there was a thread on this a long time ago. If doing something for someone else makes you feel good, you are getting something from it.

There's no such thing as true altruism because as you say, because we are always getting something out of doing for others. For me, at the moment, it seems like a way to live, because I don't feel that my life is worth living without it.

But I wouldn't want to rely on someone doing something for me in return. To do something with the expectation that the other will act in a certain way towards us is setting ourselves up for failure. Children need to grow independent, people at work need to get their job done efficiently etc, if I wash up we have clean plates to eat off, getting stuff like that done is just doing what needs doing with the purpose of getting it done.
 
I started therapy in 1985 and I was so fake, that I felt the truths coming out of therapy lifted me up by the ankles and shook every part of me out of me and there was nothing left. I had a huge identity process and was surrounded by people as sick as me.


It has been a long journey of so many painful and costly learning experiences.

I was isolated for so many years and had to keep weeding people out of my life.

But when my husband died, I knew I had to start over so I started reconnecting with a few people who I consider good friends.

I am slowly rebuilding my life as a single person, just me.

I do not want any more toxic, drama producing people in my life anymore. Never again.

I have managed to learn how to live in the real world and know myself who is real now.

I still have my limitations and I do not do so well when I am caught off guard. I will always have room to grow and to learn and even deal with.

I hope this answered your question.

I love helping people but I no longer am willing to settle for one way relationships anymore.

It takes a long time to develop friendships. Lots of trial and errors too. I mostly just follow my heart and my gut instincts. I hope this helps.
 
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