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Childhood Advice About Possible Granddaughter's Abuse?

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My granddaughter will turn five in a few days and within about the past year, I've had two incidents that (to me at least) highly suggest sexual abuse. Since I'm a survivor myself, I distrust myself on these issues--probably as I did growing up, with minimization and denial, dissociation?--and I KNOW this stuff is triggering for me. I'd love to get people's input on two things: if you believe these incidents do indeed suggest abuse and if you have ideas about what I might do.

Background: I've got PTSD from sexual molestation from several perps as child, as well as adult rape. I married a sociopath whom--evidence and therapists strongly suggest--sexually abused my daughter, starting at young age. She adamantly refuses to even acknowledge that. (Even though she intentionally broke an arm at age of eight and went to therapy for years.) She's never wanted to marry (despite having her choice of men) and now lives (enmeshed) with P, who lives at her house and has two boys aged about nine and eleven, who are there two weekends a month.

Incident One: broken elbow

I was running around with my granddaughter, whom I'll call N, and slipped on some water on kitchen floor, hit hard and broke elbow. Other than swearing once, I was not expressing pain, though I lay on floor stunned for at least twenty minutes. N spoke with me calmly in kitchen until . . . I developed an egg-sized lump at my elbow, a JUMBO egg. I mentioned that in normal tone but she freaked out. In fact, N became more agitated than I've ever seen her by FAR, backed against wall and repeating to me, "Are you going to go up?" Over and over. I couldn't make sense of that but she kept repeating while crying hysterically.

Then she switched to other question: "You're not going to get bigger, are you? I don't want you to get bigger." I couldn't figure out the link between those two questions for maybe ten minutes, until it hit me. Her emotions were EXTREME so I called S (my daughter) to come home. At that point N was at the door, wanting to open it and go out, sobbing that she wanted her mom. S told me the next day she'd never seen N like that, so upset, before.

I asked S to come to my apt so I could share a letter with her, detailing what happened and saying how concerned I was as a result (NOTHING ELSE). She became very angry at me as a result. I called child protection without telling S, relating incident, giving names, etc, as well as relating fact that P's ex-wife accused him of abusing his two boys (as S told me previously). I filed a report and they looked for a report on P but didn't find one, so his ex never officially reported that. They told me yes, incident is suggestive of abuse but unless I got more direct info from N, they couldn't do anything. I absolutely know I shouldn't question her myself cuz some would say I "tainted" her perceptions, but I'd love to have a pro do that, can't.

Know what? I've got to take a break from this, but I'll be back with incident two..
 
What about taking her to the doctor next time she is with you?

If a doctor notices anything, CPS will be notified immediately and the doctor's words are the evidence.

It's unfortunate how this works in that physical evidence must be present or the child must be able to say what happened.

PS Your header was fine and clear

I'm sorry I don't know what else to suggest. :( I am glad she has you to look out for her!
 
"Are you going to go up?" Over and over. I couldn't make sense of that but she kept repeating while crying hysterically.

Then she switched to other question: "You're not going to get bigger, are you? I don't want you to get bigger." I couldn't figure out the link between those two questions for maybe ten minutes,
I appreciate you haven't shared the second incident yet, but this is my take on the first one. I'm not sure exactly how you've interpreted what she said, but to me 'going to go up' 'going to get bigger' when she saw your elbow swelling would suggest she thought you were blowing up (like a balloon)? She has perhaps even mixed up the terms 'going up' and 'blowing up'. Which seems a pretty rational assumption by a four year old, especially if she's ever seen it happening in cartoons, or film maybe? Kids that age often get words muddled or come up with their own seemingly pretty random (but often quite logical when you break them down) ways to describe things. I don't see it as being necessarily suggestive of sexual abuse on its own. The allegations against your daughters partner are concerning though.
 
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I don't want to come off as overly dismissive, you were there, you know the situation better than anyone. From the way you have described it so far, I also tend to think that this is a very young child seeing their grandparent injure themselves. While not seriously, enough to stop you for 20 minutes.

Has there been a recent death in which someone has had to try to explain what it is to your granddaughter? I had the exact same thought as @sun seeker. Going up (to heaven).

Getting bigger, sorry this is a bit silly but I had thought of the incredible hulk. Does someone around her have a bad temper when they injure themselves? As we all are well aware, children are very sensitive to an adult throwing a temper tantrum. I still remember as a child, I had an uncle like that. He go into a rage over stupid little things. Never directed at anyone, just whatever inanimate object he had carelessly bumped into. I still remember he looked 15 feet tall when he was in that state. Is it possible for something like that to be the case?

It is good you are being diligent, keep on it. It's not unusual for a report to never be filed. SA is so often ignored. I just hope that it is not the case here. No kid deserves that.
 
honestly i feel like people that have ptsd (myself included) have a gift after as if we can sense when another person has endured such trauma as we have maybe it would be in your best interest to seek into it more, take your granddaughter on girl dates get your nails done get closer to her and maybe she will feel safe enough with you to the point were she will tell you ask her questions but don't push her once she gets timid reasure her that its okay if she doesn't want to talk about it move on to another subject and go back to it days after and maybe one days she will trust you enough to tell you i hope I'm wrong and she wasn't abused but in all honesty that sure does sound like it because thats how i acted as a lifted girl when i was sexually abused i was timid and would panic when anything went wrong such as that incident
 
Go up as in die?
Get bigger as in your whole body swelling like the goose egg on your elbow?

I'm not getting sexual abuse from being afraid someone you love is going to die. Can you connect those dots for me?

It's really normal for children to become frantic when a parent or trusted adult is hurt, much less they're afraid they're going to die. It's like seeing an adult scared, is terrifying

((it's why most preschools want fast drop offs in the beginning, and parents fake being happy for first day of kindergarten "You'll have so much fun! It's so exiting!" And then go bawl their eyes out in the car. It's easier for kids to transition when they aren't picking up on the fear & sadness from their parents. Adults are rather like God... And if God is scared? Holy crap! They should be too. Perfectly happy kid, seeing a scared or sad parent, will burst out into tears, or throw a huge tantrum, or just generally lose it all together. In about 1/5th of a second.)).
 
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I haven't even been back to site in all this time for numerous reasons, will now try to answer everyone in one post. I do appreciate all of you taking the time to reply, thanks.

So much is hard to describe and subjective, i know, but the main thing for me was that I had I NEVER seen her hysterical like that. She was not that way either until she saw the lump on my elbow, at which point it was like a switch flipping (definitely related).

I also initially thought she meant heaven re: "going up," though she wouldn't have heard that concept from my daughter. It wasn't until she also began repeating "You're not going to get bigger?" with genuine fear that I thought of an erection, both questions put together with the lump. S, the mother, my daughter, said afterward that she'd never seen her so upset

I can't take her to doctor and don't think she's been raped. There are so many other types of sexual abuse, of course, though they don't leave physical signs.

I know from experience, and from so many other survivors, how difficult and rare it is for perps to be caught (and they're SO common), and how difficult it is for kids to express these alien things. We need to have the "ears to hear" abuse, that peculiar language of experience?

mermaidmanthy: Thanks for your understanding and validation, makes me feel less crazy. I'll get the other incident now, I guess? Don't want to, but ... be right back.
 
I was babysitting N and putting her to bed. (Relevant: a couple hours earlier, one of P's sons was talking about "rock monsters.") N asked me to check under her bed for monsters. I obliged and told her monsters aren't real. She objected vehemently that "ROCK monsters are real." From all the time I've spent with her, I was taken by her unusual demeanor and how upset she was as I tried to reassure her repeatedly. She cried and even yelled repeatedly, insisting that rock monsters are real, affronted and frustrated that I wouldn't take it seriously or believe her.

I swear that intensity of her very genuine emotion would prompt anyone with experience of kids (and with a heart) to take her seriously. I sat on her bed trying to understand what was going on, to make sense of it. She valiantly struggled for about ten minutes to articulate SOMETHING, but couldn't. Finally she said P had told her and showed her in the basement that "rock monsters are REAL." P's son had been listening in the hallway and now popped in to say he'd probably just told her a story, and I repeated that to her: "just a story." That struck her to the core as she again tried explaining, crying, SO upset!

After a while of that, I thought to ask because of her struggle to speak, "Is it a secret?" Although she'd been crying and yelling, hysterical, she suddenly relaxed--I could SEE that change in her body--when I asked that, like "finally!" She actually WHISPERED, "Yes." However, when I suggested we talk to P and her mom about this, to get to the bottom of it, she became the most hysterical yet, insisting I couldn't say anything about it. She was very obviously SCARED about that and didn't relax again until I told her I wouldn't say anything.

What I'm planning on doing now, maybe after Easter, is give my daughter a letter describing the incident without accusations, and then also call Child Protection, as I know they accumulate reports.
 
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Another very difficult thing? I've worked SO hard on my abuse issues and trying to break the intergenerational cycle with my kids, and even had one of my kids' therapists tell me I'd broken it. But the last two guys my daughter's had a serious relationship with have similarities to her sociopath father, and now it looks like another generation has taken on this crap. Can't describe how it breaks my heart, makes me feel so helpless.
 
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