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Anxiety Vs. Fear

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With help from my therapists, I've been working hard on confronting a bunch of fears. Despite the fact that I have a long way to go on my giant list of trauma and fears, I'm pleased with progress so far.

One surprise, however, is that anxiety remains strong, despite substantially reduced fear. I had assumed that the two were inextricably connected.

I think my body is stuck in a loop. Does anyone else have any insight into the relationship between fear and anxiety?
 
My fears have always been fairly normal. Do I, or have I, kicked into uncontrollable fear? Yep. But my knee jerk problem isn't fear. It's anger. Even so, my fight response isn't absolutely linked to anger, nor is my flight response linked to fear. In fact, when either kick in? I have virtually no emotions whatsoever. Instead it's the other way around: when I get angry, my fight response also kicks in. A whole 5th iron on the fire is anxiety, which is linked to all 4, but not dependent on any of them.

Gah. This is a totally cool question. I really want to diagram it out.

Fight
I ^
I I
- I
I I
I I
v I
Anger

Grrrrr. Can't do it very well, on here. But this is the very beginning of what the series of relationships between Fight, Flight, Anger, Fear, & Anxiety. would look like: Fight can, but does not always equate to anger. Anger, otoh, does alway equate and kick up into Fight.

Fear, meanwhile, can kick into either Fight or Flight.

Anxiety is even trickier... Because it relates to all 4, but is also related to a 6th aspect (time), and a 7th aspect (inaction)... Which is linked to an 8th aspect (freeze) but freeze & inaction are also 2 seperate entities.

:D Really want to diagram this out!!! I've never really thought about all 8 aspects & how they interrelate as a group, before.

ETA... Okay, starting the diagram in my head... This is a really basic observation (that I've just never linked before)... The interrelationship between instinct and choice. Fight/Flight/Freeze are all instinctual. But inaction is pure choice. Anger is something I've been learning is choice. Makes me suspect Fear is, also. ((But anger and fear both spin up so quickly, slowing them down enough to recognize when I have a choice, while difficult, doesn't negate the choice. I just make it very, very fast.))

I think anxiety is the bridge. Between instinct and choice. I'm not sure. My mind is kind of blown, right now.

Yo... @anthony... What are your thoughts on this?
 
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I think fear is something that we view as an active threat. And anxiety is an apprehension, worry, tension, concern for something that might or might not happen or might not be as severe a threat. Both have similar but also different body responses. Fear is more adrenaline fight or flight (well in the presence of something you are afraid of) and anxiety is a tense, nervous, restless, dreadful type feeling. Its hard to describe anxiety without using the word anxious. Oi.

It kind of makes sense if you have a learned fear of something that even if you reach the point of not being afraid and its no longer an active danger that it might still make you anxious/nervous.

If you've passed the fight or flight level maybe the trick is to keep doing exposure and reaffirm your safety so you have a pattern of it going well and can fight back against the anxiety. Or that's what I would guess.

This is a really good question, definitely got the hamster running on the wheel. I'm interested to see what others think.
 
I could have easily written your posts, FridayJones and moonbeam. And FridayJones, I thought I was the only person who tried to use visuals to explain a thought process.

My first response is.... there's definitely a link but I don't know what it is. The answer is elusive and varies person to person but I still want and need an answer. Gaining insight to what happened to me and learning why I react the way I do is my cornerstone for recovery. (I wrote four more paragraphs on the topic before I had a revelation of sorts)

Because your posts are so similar to what I struggle with, maybe the answer is somewhere else.

Here goes and I apologize if it sounds off topic. -It's like the spoon scene in the Matrix

Boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.



My husband just went through a program for PTSD individuals who self medicate with alcohol. He returned with the belief that asking "why" will not solve his problems. The "why" isn't the answer for him, the answer for him is in his day to day actions.

I don't think this applies to me and fight this solution. His trauma began as an adult, mine when I was a child. Neither is better/worse but trauma as a young child means I have no "before" to compare life to. I've often wished healing was as simple as the principals of AA. Maybe it is.

Maybe I'm my own worst enemy trying to figure out this puzzle that is me with CPTSD. I don't use self medication as a coping mechanism so I shy away from the traditional AA beliefs. But if the signs/symptoms of PTSD and addiction are amazingly similar, why couldn't the answer for recovery be the same as well?

Maybe my constant search for understanding is in itself, a symptom of PTSD from childhood. Maybe the relief I feel when I delve into the "why" is the same relief my husband gets when he drinks.

Does this make any sense? Here's a visual...

PTSD:
intellectual discussion = mind is preoccupied
understanding = less anxiety/fear
mind working towards a solution = belief I can get better
hours of contemplation = temporary relief
recognition relief is temporary = feeling disgusted I'm no closer to the truth
disgust = determination to work harder = must continue CYCLE

Addictionl:
substance abuse = temporary relief of anxiety/fear
recognition relief is temporary = disgust
disgust = anxiety/fear = CYCLE continues

Now that I've written this long post, I realize deep down I probably already believe it's true in my situation. I seek an understanding with the excuse that I NEED it because my abuse started so early that only learning to understand will help.

My husband drinks because his trauma happened later in life and he seeks alcohol with the excuse that only a drink will help.

Now I'm left with another thought..

I had a lot of paperwork to complete before going into work today. In the giant scheme of things, this thread, which seemed so important to answer at the time, was nothing but a distraction.

Maybe I cling to learning/understanding because I know true learning never ends and I use it as an excuse for why I haven't taken the steps to change my behavior. A self defeating behavior that never ends.

If anyone can navigate through this, please let me know what you think. I've got to get to work.
 
It always amazes me how non-alcoholics claim to know how AA works. Or that only trauma survivors self medicate. I am a grateful recovering alcoholic with 24 years of sobriety. It took 15 years of sobriety and dedication to a twelve step program to start my healing from PTSD. Don't overthink it. Everyone has the only requirement-a desire to stop drinking. It is not the deep philosophical exercise people not involved in it think it is. And it's not easy. It's a bunch of people sharing their experience, strength and hope to help others recover. Period. End of discussion. And not unlike this forum. A bunch of people sharing their experience, strength and hope to help others recover.
 
I could not have said it better Kwanyingirl.

Additionally Fred tons of people have drinking problems from childhood trauma and tons of people with adult drama don't. I doubt your husband drinks because of WHEN his trauma happened but more BECAUSE his trauma happened.

I think a constant search for understanding is a human thing. Its why we flock to those who are like minded. And why there are so many different support and social groups going on everywhere for various things because humans want to be understood, acknowledged and appreciated. Nothing wrong in that.

I don't think I fully understand the no spoon analogy in this case. I got it in the movie but I am not sure what the spoon is in this scenario. Is the spoon fear or anxiety? Or anger?

Welcome to the forum Fred Derry. :hug: if you accept them.
 
Please forgive me, does that mean yes or no? My communication skills are excellent but as soon as I'm "triggered" or encounter a stressor (sp?) I shut down. My intelligence means jack shit and I'm no longer functioning, much less high functioning.

That said, I just called one of my sisters. I want to go to AA and if I'm laughed out of the meeting, so be it. To quote a book title, I know this much is true.... Just because I don't drink or do drugs, it doesn't mean my coping mechanisms aren't destroying my life. I told my sister I need what AA offers and she broke down. She drinks but doesn't do it regularly and doesn't lose control... ever. But she knows her drinking is a coping mechanism and she wants help as well.

Thoughts? Advice? Has anyone else been here?

-FYI, our aversion to self medication is s huge part of our abusive past. My father threatened to kill me and my sisters if we ever, ever drank/did drugs. He gave us plenty of reasons to believe him and only one of my sisters ever defied him.

Since I started therapy, three of us can now admit our fear of drugs/alcohol is PTSD based. I guess it's a start.
 
Thank you moonbeam for that clarity. My husband drinks because of the trauma. I'm over thinking this like I over think everything. Is it another symptom of PTSD? Can you see why I'm willing to try AA?

-And once again, I blame it on my past because not only did the abuse begin when we were very young, my sisters and I lived in isolation. No friends, no family, a lot like a cult or dictatorship. Although I'd had inklings something was wrong, until a year ago, I believed my father was a good man who did the best he could do in a bad situation. Oh god I was so brainwashed and calling that person my father makes me want to puke.
 
I don't have much to add, aside from thanking you all for your thoughtful and helpful responses! You've given me lots to think about.

Every time I post here, I feel so thankful to be surrounded by such a vibrant community. :hug:
 
Oh and the spoon analogy is this.... I'm unable to control my self destructive behaviors and I'm unable to "analyze" myself out of this situation. I'm not in crisis this moment, but I'm in survival mode and I don't know how long I can continue cognitive thought before I hit critical mass.

I need to consider "there is no spoon". I need to seek help that isn't logical. I need to reinvent my definition of survival because what I'm doing isn't working. If I don't take action soon, I'll analyze myself right into crisis and I'm not strong enough to go back there right now.
 
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