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Complex Ptsd Vs. Bpd

Discussion in 'Other Symptoms & Disorders' started by Javagoat, Nov 3, 2011.

  1. Javagoat

    Javagoat Member

    What is the relationship between Complex PTSD and Borderline Personality Disorder? Are they the same thing essentially?
     
  2. Kb3

    Kb3 Guest

    There's something about this in one of the wiki's. Cptsd comes from trauma, BPD may or may not.
     
  3. Solara

    Solara Peeps gotta respect themselves! Premium Member

    Everyone with CPTSD has endured trauma. Not everyone with BPD has. So no, they are not the same.

    Another difference? BPD carries with it a stigma both among professionals and non-professionals. With CPTSD, not so much.
     
  4. Javagoat

    Javagoat Member

  5. anthony

    anthony Brick Wall, Bang Head Staff Member Premium Member

    There is no such thing as complex PTSD either... there is only complex trauma. PTSD is the only diagnosis that exists. Complex PTSD is perpetuated and has no legal or professional use.

    Those with complex trauma are diagnosed with PTSD + dissociative and/or personality disorder/s.
     
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  6. Stormy Eagle

    Stormy Eagle Active Member

    Complex post-traumatic stress disorder

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) is a psychological injury that results from protracted exposure to prolonged social and/or interpersonal trauma with lack or loss of control, disempowerment, and in the context of either captivity or entrapment, i.e. the lack of a viable escape route for the victim. C-PTSD is distinct from, but similar to, posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

    The C-PTSD diagnosis developed when some clinicians argued that PTSD did not account for all the symptoms in some patients who had been repeatedly traumatized, and that further diagnostic criteria and treatments were necessary to help such patients. Though mainstream journals have published papers on C-PTSD, the category is not formally recognized in diagnostic systems such as DSM or ICD.[1]

    C-PTSD involves complex and reciprocal interactions between multiple biopsychosocial systems. It was first described in 1992 by Judith Herman in her book Trauma & Recovery and an accompanying article.[2][3] Forms of trauma associated with C-PTSD include sexual abuse (especially child sexual abuse), physical abuse, emotional abuse, domestic violence or torture -- all repeated traumas in which there is an actual or perceived inability for the victim to escape
     
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  7. anthony

    anthony Brick Wall, Bang Head Staff Member Premium Member

    It must be true if Wikipedia has it, yes?

    No... please outline to me where are the diagnostic criteria? Where is it within the ICD or DSM? Can someone please show me where its scheduled for inclusion in the forthcoming ICD or DSM?

    It doesn't exist... and you need to read the discussion to that wikipedia page, as health professionals globally recommend it be removed, yet wikipedia won't... because it insists that the page has relevance, even though it has no legal standing and CANNOT be diagnosed.

    Any person on this forum who says they have CPTSD, you need to go back and ask your psychiatrist to see the legal diagnoses they have given you, and I guarantee it won't say CPTSD for insurance or prescription / any legal medical purpose.

    CPTSD is just a coined phrase, there is zero diagnostic criteria or substance to it. The DSM has rejected it from inclusion, even into the DSM V, rejected, and the ICD aren't adopting it either.

    This is not a new discussion and people need to do research, beyond wikipedia, because it doesn't exist with any medical, insurance or legal scope. You don't have CPTSD, you have PTSD + dissociative disorder and/or personality disorder. That is the legal, medical, and insurance diagnoses you will receive, not CPTSD.

    People need to start doing more research and less believing in crap you find on some website... that is the problem with the web... filtering through the crap to find the truth. I did a quick search on wikipedia problems, and straight away I find a previous admission by a founder the site is full of inaccurate information: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/18/wikipedia_quality_problem/

    Google is your friend, use it to find the truth, not just one angle or the other, but the truth about something.

    US Department of Veterans Affairs discussion on it, updated in 2010: http://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/pages/complex-ptsd.asp with still no viability.

    People should also not confuse complex PTSD with complex trauma. The first is not real, the second is.
     
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  8. Kb3

    Kb3 Guest

    That's too bad. CPTSD is the only label which doesn't seem to heap blame and judgement back on the patient IMHO.

    Of course I say that as someone who would most likely be d'xd w/a personality disorder + PTSD. I would be really worried about being stigmatised by professionals.
     
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  9. intothelight

    intothelight Just Being Me Staff Member Premium Member

    I haven't found that a diagnosis of PTSD puts blame or judgement back on the patient, nor do I find that most diagnosis put blame on the patient. They are just labels to categorize or define a certain set of behaviors, symptoms, and/or physiological characteristics to allow uniformity in diagnosis and treatment for the medical profession.

    The problem with creating a diagnosis is that it cannot be too narrow or too broad, as then it would lose its effectiveness as a tool for diagnosis, treatment, and research. It is important to remember that it is just a tool and it doesn't define who a person is, nor can one diagnosis cover the complexity of a human beings behavior, emotions or physical make-up. It is a guideline for diagnosis, and as treatment, research and advances in medicine continue, there will be continued changes in scope of the diagnosis.
     
  10. anthony

    anthony Brick Wall, Bang Head Staff Member Premium Member

    Exactly... labels are just that, labels, they don't define the person, they define a problem/s that exist which need treating.

    There is so much issue with people who have been told they have CPTSD, that they actually believe they deserve or warrant a special label, even though the label doesn't exist... typically because of the personality traits present to begin with... yet they want that label nonetheless instead of the legal, actual labels that do exist.

    I agree with the APA's decision on not creating CPTSD, and also their stiffening of PTSD diagnosis, because interpretations were running rampant and are causing all sorts of issue for the diagnosis globally, for those legitimately suffering it; secondly every proposal I have read on an actual CPTSD diagnostic criterion was pulled to pieces due to the amount of indifference found between so called possible sufferers, where no majority could be clearly defined compared with applying existing diagnostic categorisation, PTSD + Axis II and/or dissociative disorders + comorbid as applicable.

    People think CPTSD gives them validity, when in actual fact there is no diagnostic criteria linked to such a term for actual diagnosis to begin with. It just doesn't exist...

    A psychiatrist or psychologist may use that term, note "term", to quickly define to a person the severity of their illness, instead of saying you have PTSD + BPD.

    Plenty of people with PTSD fit more than just PTSD, but that is what each specific disorder exists for as its own category, to stop cross contamination between diagnoses, as most have cross-over symptoms.
     
  11. Kb3

    Kb3 Guest

    Me either, I prefer the PTSD dx because it presents an external reason for my symptoms which is validating for me.

    It's the PD dx that I don't like although I suppose that the behaviours could be explained by the traumatic environment . It's just that there always seemed to be a lot of stigma w/PD disorders with professionals and as someone with my problems that feels very hurtful, unhelpful and perhaps not worth taking a chance on that rejection.
     
  12. Stormy Eagle

    Stormy Eagle Active Member

    No diagnosis starts out as an official diagnosis...or in the DSM...just as no law starts as a law. We find there is a need for it, that it is HELPFUL FOR MANY PEOPLE, and then and only then, is it added to the DSM...or put into law.
     
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  13. Stormy Eagle

    Stormy Eagle Active Member

    I have to say, everything FINALLY came together for me after I read about complex PTSD, I am sure it will make its way into the DSM too
     
  14. anthony

    anthony Brick Wall, Bang Head Staff Member Premium Member

    The American Psychiatric Assocation (APA), the people who write the DSM, have already made statement that CPTSD will not be a diagnostic category in the DSM, as they feel the criteria are already correctly covered by unique diagnoses that already exist individually.

    Part of their decision also encompassed the now new categorisation of PTSD and other disorders, from their prior category to the new category of "Trauma and Stressor Related Disorders" in the DSM V, which you can now find at www.dsm5.org for your own reading.
     
  15. Stormy Eagle

    Stormy Eagle Active Member

    All trauma is complex. Just because the psychiatric community has come up with a more complete diagnosis for a group of people does not seperate us, or simplify anyone's trauma. I am greatful for the diagnosis that has given me some hope. Now that I have identifed it...someday I hope I can moving on in life from it. Although I have no idea how...

    Complex PTSD is caused by many, many separate events, which occur over a long period of time, extending through hundreds of memory pathways. C-PTSD calls for different treatments to get results. EMDR works on PTSD because you can go back to the one event and treat for the one event and it relieves the symptoms. Desensitization can also work because you have a particular thing to desensitize from. Unfortunately, I have too many traumatic events to be able to forget.

    The DSM-I came out in 1952 - there were 106 diagnoses, including the diagnosis of homosexuality as a psychiatric disorder. The DSM continues to evolve as our understanding of neurobiology and psychology increases. It is not included in the DSM because it has only recently been discovered, and still being researched.

    Please, let's stay united as a community and not challange one another because some of us are a bit less functional than others.
     
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  16. anthony

    anthony Brick Wall, Bang Head Staff Member Premium Member

    CPTSD has been around for 20 years... its not new. It was around at the time of the DSM III and applied for inclusion the the DSM IV, then DSM IV-TR, now also the DSM V, rejected from all three. The first two due to inconclusive data. The current doctrine because empirical data is now consolidated to say the CPTSD theory is incorrect, because a majority of trauma sufferers who endure the specifics involved don't equally fit the proposed criterion.

    People should not get wrapped up in CPTSD... this site is about the truth, and the truth is that CPTSD as a diagnosis has been rejected conclusively now. There is no diagnostic criterion to be diagnosed with this... labelled, yes, diagnosed, no.

    The facts as they stand now, the APA are looking at including DESNOS, which will become the diagnosis for those fitting complex trauma.

    I wouldn't say all trauma is complex though... that is wrong. That is an emotional approach, not a factual approach. You can say that to be "emotionally" supportive, but that is just not factual.

    CPTSD is no different to other terms already used, such as Secondary PTSD, Combat PTSD, etc... none of which are diagnoses, they are purely terms. None of them have clinical significance other than a term used to quickly identify specific actual diagnoses the person has based on trauma type. That is the key word... "trauma type".

    CPTSD = PTSD + BPD and/or dissociative disorder.
    Combat PTSD = PTSD + substance abuse disorder and/or mood disorder
    Secondary PTSD = PTSD from being traumatized by someone else with PTSD (relationship) due to abuse endure that is in itself, traumatic (physical and/or emotional).

    None of the above are diagnoses, they are terms quickly used.

    The APA discussed pulling PTSD apart a couple of years ago, into diagnostic categories, and they concluded that it just wasn't in the best interest of the patient, as correct diagnoses already existed. Basically, if its not broken, don't try and fix it.

    The beginning DSM's and psychiatry was quite young and within infancy compared to psychiatry today. Whilst it is still evolving, neuroscience has really helped define stability which we're now seeing in the development of the DSM V, through confirming current practices or slightly amending. Very little new is being added to the DSM V overall, more its being refined, as current practices, data and neuroscience has confirmed accuracy for the majority of current psychiatry... which for those within the past decade, is overall good news IMO.

    We have traumatic, abnormally traumatic and then complex trauma. There is a very clear and definitive difference between all three types and how they interact with the brain and behaviour in general.
     
  17. anthony

    anthony Brick Wall, Bang Head Staff Member Premium Member

    Thinking about this, considering this is the umpteenth time this topic has been discussed, I will include it in the revised "Understanding PTSD" document I have nearly completed... Will do that right now.
     
  18. Muse

    Muse I'm a VIP

    Anthony, can you speak to the diagnostic criteria of dissociative disorder? I am new to this term, and I have learned that some psychiatrists at my local hospital don't "believe in" dissociation. How can that be? Is it for each therapist to pick and choose what diagnoses they do and don't "believe" exist? I get it that not all practicioners of each science buys into all of it, but it's a challenge for me that so many people are divided about dissociation and "repressed" memories.
     
  19. anthony

    anthony Brick Wall, Bang Head Staff Member Premium Member

    It is up to the individual therapists in what they believe in... unfortunately you will never rule out the human equation in medicine... well, not any time soon.

    Dissociative disorders are real, current, legal diagnoses... DID is the only contentious disorder, more so than PTSD is at present, being the two most contentious disorders within mental health at this given time.

    DID purely because they renamed it from MPD, and like PTSD, physicians are handing it out willy nilly to anyone who says they feel like they have several personalities within them, which isn't DID. Physicians are abusing diagnostic application, especially within America. No other country in the world has the number of DID / MPD diagnosed as that within America. America is killing mental health in some respects due to capitalistic greed.

    The official and current dissociative disorders are:
    Quite honestly, with the newer categorization of trauma and stressor related disorders in the DSM V, I can see that whilst they won't be including CPTSD still, the APA don't deny complex trauma, but to categorize it under existing structures was impossible. With the new categorization system, I can see a different form of diagnosis introduced in the future to capture complex trauma uniquely, without trying to delve across so many diverse diagnoses that CPTSD attempted to do, which really caused the downfall of CPTSD before it ever got of the ground.
     
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  20. anthony

    anthony Brick Wall, Bang Head Staff Member Premium Member

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  21. Muse

    Muse I'm a VIP

    I agree. People compartmentalize their roles according to their environment like cameleons. So we all "wear different hats" and that doesn't mean we all have DID. I can see how people might feel overly compartmentalized by our American culture of work, work, work and no balance or acceptance that we don't have to have every thing, every new toy or product out there. Americans are told to be first and foremost a consumer and to deny natural feelings in order to need to buy things. This is a trap, and most Americans don't even see the problem. Most are put on so many pills! I knew a woman who was found passed out on the floor. She was on over 18 different drugs per day, 18 pills! If someone is that ill, she ought to be in a hospital. She realized that you cannot trust many Doctors as they are pill pushers for the most part here. Some are not, but it's hard to find those ones, because to them, it's not a "job" and they don't work for the drug companies; they fill up and have no room for more patients.
     
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  22. anthony

    anthony Brick Wall, Bang Head Staff Member Premium Member

    I just feel like banging my head against a wall some days due to the way mental health has shifted so negatively at the front line... being the treating physicians!
     
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  23. Srain

    Srain "Please don't tell me not to cry." Premium Member

    Sorry to jump in here like this on this topic but just to be clear, the Dissociative Disorder I was diagnosed with years ago and which I'm assuming has been now been dropped because I don't fit the profile of DID, it goes to the area of Depersonalization and Derealization, which is NOT a separate diagnosis, correct?
     
  24. anthony

    anthony Brick Wall, Bang Head Staff Member Premium Member

  25. zeldazonk

    zeldazonk Member

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