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Confusion Over The Hate Of Police By Some Veterans?

Discussion in 'Military & Emergency Services' started by Ka-9, Sep 2, 2016.

  1. Ka-9

    Ka-9 Active Member

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    Ooops... sorry.... to clarify, not extreme rage....that's full crazy, and medicated I'm no where near full crazy.

    I just hate him....like normal, hope he gets that concussive NFL'er deal and ends up shitting himself, hate.
     
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  3. Friday

    Friday Raise Hell Moderator

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    Also @EveHarrington

    The American Revolution

    Which paved the way for the French Revolution, as well as was the tipping point for all out colonial rebellion across the British Empire (&Spanish &Portuguese... & Turkish & Bolshevik ...& Several in Asia -although those were mostly unsuccessful), which not only resulted in more than one free & democratic state, but in order to stem the tide forced the UK to drastically alter it's own laws & the laws governing remaining colonies. <waves at Australia & Canada>

    Without the American Revolution none of those freedoms set forth in the Constitution & Bill of Rights would exist as they do today.

    Did everything go swimmingly, taking the power from he monarchies and handing it over to the people? Of course not. Communism was a dismal failure, many countries either elected despots or were overtaken by them, some countries remained virtual or literal police states never laying down arms but simply turning those arms on themselves, and no few wars have been fought since over those self same rights... But they exist at all because people fought and died for them, and continue to fight and die for them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
    Ka-9, Florian7051 and Ronin like this.
  4. Ragdoll Circus

    Ragdoll Circus I'm a VIP Premium Member

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    Wha..?*scratches head*
     
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  5. Anarchy

    Anarchy I'm a VIP

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    free speech for whom?
    there's the small matter of terrorism against those who disagreed, and the historical fact that they were forced to flee after the war

    following the coup d'etat that was the constitutional convention, even the illusion of free speech was extremely short lived - and the pretext given for its supression: a war
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts

    My point, War is emphatically not a safe cradle for free speech - it is a pretext for stamping on free speech and free thought, and for spying on and harassing those suspected of it. let's face it, war is not about parly, it's about doing it with deadly violence and destruction, on the battlefield and in society.
     
  6. Friday

    Friday Raise Hell Moderator

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    @Anarchy... You do get that freedom of speech didn't exist prior to the war? There was nothing to stomp on. Because it wasn't a right. At all. Anywhere in the west, & most of the world.

    I'm certainly not saying that everything was utopian wonderland, and to the best of my knowledge no law anywhere in the history of time has been applied equally and fairly to all members of any society... Ever.

    What I am saying is that zero people (in the british empire, et al) had the right to freedom of speech, assembly, the press, etc. until that war was fought. Zero... Versus the hundreds of millions across 4 continents and several dozen countries now have versions of those rights... That those rights exist at all... Are as a direct result of that war, and the revolutions worldwide that followed. That's history. Didn't exist. War. Did exist.
     
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  7. Anarchy

    Anarchy I'm a VIP

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    Then the usual arrangement of policing and courts in stateless (and minimal state) societies will keep you going for a while;

    everyone in the society is insured against torts (there are generally no "victimless crimes", or if there are some, they are very few in number and small in scope, if the prudes had to pay entirely out of their own pockets for let's say banning drugs, drug prohibition wouldn't last very long. It's only because the state provides a mechanism for the prudes to socialise the cost of enforcing their intolerance onto everyone else, via taxes, that idiocy like a war on drugs exists).

    no one who suffers loss or injury goes un compensated, even if the perp is a minor, mentally ill or flees. Now, admittedly, money isn't going to make you whole again, but there is a price point at which you and your supporters are going to take the money rather than go after the perp.

    Historically, there have been different ways of organizing the insurance, and it has generally been "mutual". In Medieval Ireland it was people who cooked and ate together (Kitchen groups), Anglo Saxon England, it was neighbourhoods, in present day Somalia (the Somali customary legal system has potential to be the finest in the world!), it is by the offspring of a common great grandfather. In Medieval Iceland, it was pretty much a free market, you could contract with anyone else on the island, and you could sell a tort claim on, for someone else to pursue the perp, just like you can sell a debt.

    In each case people can apply to join a different insurance group, and those who are repeatedly the source of claims risk being expelled and unable to function in society (there is a business opportunity there for offering those people protection in return for a much higher price - a sort of self funding voluntary open prison).

    Move that into a present day setting, and most people would probably go for a competing for profit commercial insurance companies, but that certainly wouldn't exclude other possibilities such as mutual, fraternity, labour union, or church based insurance groups. (take the state and licensing out of the equation and you can expect an extremely competitive and diverse market).

    The insurance group provides the police for your defence and legal defence in a court.

    in the event of a claim against you, your insurer has the job of bringing you before a court.

    Now imagine a market for private competing courts - to resolve disputes.

    Such courts are actually present now, in the form of the arbitrators specified and agreed upon incase of dispute in business contracts - because the state sector courts are too slow, too expensive and are very unlikely to even understand the issues involved.

    _______________________________________

    This will get you started, it's not perfect, but it is extremely good;
    https://mises.org/library/enterprise-customary-law
    Benson's book, that the linked piece is a short excerpt from, is about 400 pages long and has from 60 to over 120 refs cited per chapter. Plenty to get your teeth into, but it's difficult to convey all of the arguments in the short space of a forum post.

    or at least a forum post that anyone can be bothered to read.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  8. Anarchy

    Anarchy I'm a VIP

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    Actually, free will and freedom of consceince (and carrying individual responsibility for those) is central to Augustinian teachings that forms the main core of Roman Catholic Christianity. You really do see that free thought with the scholastic philosophers, who were variously Dominican, Jesuit and Franciscan.

    There is a direct path from the late Spanish Scholastics to mid 18th century America (Specifically, Thomas Jefferson had read Fr Juan de Mariana's work).

    Free thought tended to drop out of currency with the various Lutheran and Calvinist strands of the religious reformation and the royal absolutism that the reformation ushered in and enabled. (humans were too tainted with original sin and were universally damned to hell - all knowledge came from divine revelation).

    Remember that the Mayflower was all about the freedom for a bunch of miserable Calvinists to practice extreme religious intolerance - and look what the New England elect did to Quakers who spoke truth to power, they were variously lashed to wagons and whipped naked through town, had their ears cut off, banished during snow storms and in at least one case executed (IIRC she was burned) and that was just the girls!

    that's not to say that free thought and speech didn't continue in England and later in America - it did, in the fora of Quaker society, the levellers, until cromwell crushed them, and the secret societies which flourished in the 17th and 18th centuries.

    the argument that free speech is due to war, is a red herring, a complete non sequitur.

    the more specific and correct cause of the claimed recognition of free speech for a very short period of time in the Americas was a bunch of freemasons. not a war.
     
  9. Ronin

    Ronin Falling Into A Dream Premium Member

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    Ask all them kids that admire footballers.

    Ask all them kids that need someone to look up to who stands by his opinion, who expresses it by a form of a protest that gets the public eye, even if to eyeroll.

    Ask all the people who relax with the sport and reading celebrity affairs.

    Ask all those women that find him an admirable man to be with him. (And please do not throw around those offensive remarks disrespecting them as tools for a star, as they are still women, not objects, and what they do with their bodies is theirs to decide, free of judgment of others.)

    Et cetera.
    He is useful.
    He is valuable.

    That not to you? Do not give a flying f*ck.

    The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    (I do not give a f*ck, one way or the other, about sport, beside it being an amusing pastime. But I do give a plenty of f*cks about not dehumanizing other people, profession of choice aside.

    I give a f*ck about not having to listen to self entitled arbiters of who has value as a person, and who does not, as it is only self centered talk, nothing more.)
     
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  10. Florian7051

    Florian7051 Well-Known Member

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    @Anarchy

    It's like this my friend... you have not seen oppression until you have wandered down the streets of Fallujah, Baghdad, or Ramadi, so unless you have, do not speak to me as if you know oppression, or have witnessed it first hand because you have not. You want to see a group of people that were terrified to speak, had no rights, were enslaved to a tyrant, then I can't think of a greater example. These people were literally murdered if they spoke out against their government. We liberated those people. We gave them the opportunity to vote, to have their voices heard. We built schools in a land where it was forbidden for certain children to be educated. We gave those people power and running water. We gave them food and soccer balls. We built them mosques so they could pray to a heathen god that I don't even believe in. We rebuilt an infrastructure to a group of people that were treated like cattle before we arrived. We trained their police force and their army. We taught them how to self sustain. I watched this happen first hand. There is nothing about the Iraq War that you can tell me that I didn't see with my own two eyes. We gave those people hope. But I guess those people don't matter to you do they? The only free speech they had led them to a mass grave site for like minded rebels... Well I put an end to that bullshit, me and a few hundred thousand of America's sons and daughters. You can sit their from your safe and comfy computer chair and talk to me about anarchy but in an anarchy state you would be eaten alive by the wolves. Lt Col David Grossman said it the best (I'm paraphrasing) The sheep don't like the sheepdog until the wolf comes along. They don't like him because he looks an awful lot like the wolf and makes him nervous.

    You see there are 3 types of people in the world the sheep who make it through their day pretending that evil doesn't exist. The wolf who is inherently evil and preys upon the sheep, and the sheepdog who is prone to violence but is inherently good and serves to protect the sheep from the wolf. There is no other variety of human; you fit into one of those 3 categories. I am a sheepdog not a wolf...
     
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  11. Ka-9

    Ka-9 Active Member

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    I'm sorry my good man, but I think you may have mistaken me for someone who values your opinions on this particular topic.

    With all respect, I just don't. So certainly feel free to reply at will to others on my thread about my own PTSD, all are welcome I suppose? I just really don't feel ya, well because I don't think you'd fit my boots to be brutally honest. My bad, but it's my honest opinion.

    Of course the fact that you are rather vehemently attacking me.... for "dehumanizing others, profession aside", when the very individual I was "attacking" was dehumanizing dead cops! How ironic wouldn't we say peanut?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  12. Ronin

    Ronin Falling Into A Dream Premium Member

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    Attacking?

    Please.

    I merely expressed a differing opinion as to the value of that footballist. Which had zero opinion on what I think of his speech itself, just that I do not believe him to suddenly become a scum worthless of life, nor worth that kind of a hate flame.

    That doesn't say a thing about what I think of anyone police, as individuals and as an institution.

    It is not an attack. It is a 'consider a different angle to this'. Something that is a rather common way of discussing topics on these boards, and I am sorry that convention has been perceived as an attack in your case, though that was not my intent.
     
  13. Florian7051

    Florian7051 Well-Known Member

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