• 💖 [Donate To Keep MyPTSD Online] 💖 Every contribution, no matter how small, fuels our mission and helps us continue to provide peer-to-peer services. Your generosity keeps us independent and available freely to the world. MyPTSD closes if we can't reach our annual goal.

News Do You Believe We Have Free Will?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Muzikluvr

MyPTSD Pro
Sam Harris has written a book called Free Will. Here is a video of one of his speeches on the book tour.

Would you feel differently about your abuser, or about anyone you might blame for the trauma you experienced, if you believed they weren't free to choose otherwise?


I think Sam is speaking my language in this video. How many times have I been over and over my traumas, trying to recapture my state of mind at the time of the trauma, instead of viewing it from hindsight which can be so harsh and judgmental? Each time, I recalled more information that limited my perspective at the time of the trauma, narrowing the options I had for making "better" choices. I was certainly a product of my environment. I was not the same as I am now, because I didn't have the same information at hand.

I am limited by my intelligence level, which I think most constricts my imagination and creativity. Although, those may be improved, I think, with confidence and courage; fear of sharing ideas really truncates my creativity. Still, my point is that I am limited physical and mentally by my DNA. I am in that small percentage of people who get PTSD from trauma.

I wonder if any of you feel like this video helps you release the hate you feel for your abuser, or for whomever may have caused your trauma, by explaining all the factors which constrict our ability to really choose ANY option imaginable in hindsight or from someone else's creative mind.

Personally, I have many times felt compassion for my abusers and enablers, by applying the same reasoning to them that I apply to myself in regards to "why" I made the choices I made during the traumas, and in various other upsetting or even rewarding times in my life. I feel it would be disingenuous to accept my own flaws and limitations, but then hold everyone else to perfection. That doesn't mean I let them off the hook for their actions, though. Their choices may have been limited, but they still had choices. I think their priorities determined which choice they acted on and that's something that was created for them, unless they are self-aware. They are responsible for making changes to their priorities to align with a decent moral code, as am I.

I really get how Sam describes the way our minds work. Thoughts pop into our minds randomly sometimes, and other times they're created in response to some stimuli... a trigger, a question, whatever. We don't really control the thoughts that come to mind, but we can choose which ones we want to pursue. I think it's fascinating that scientists can see an FMRI, which choice a person is going to make seconds before they know which choice they'll make. Their brain chooses and then lets them know. Can we call that free will? When the brain makes the choice before we even know what it is?

I'm really appreciative of Sam's concept of crime and punishment. I believe that several of my abusers, not all of them, were interested in being caught and getting help. But, we don't really help rapists in this country. We throw them into jail and we hope that they're raped there... pretty much. I believe there is a distinct difference between abusers and predators. Abusers, IMHO, and I may have read this somewhere before, I'm not sure, are part of the abuse cycle like victims and enablers and they take their turns in each role... usually. Victims and enablers take their turns as abusers too, and you can certainly see that in some of us PTSD'ers.

So, to remove the idea that someone can be despised out of their negative behavior, or that retaliation could have any good impact at all in punishing abusers or predators of their crimes, gives way to a more compassionate opportunity for rehabilitation. I think a lot of abusers could be rehabilitated. I think zero predators could be rehabilitated, but that is based on my own experiences and my awareness of predators in the news and such. There would have to be some significant double blind studies proving that a predator could be rehabilitated. However, we'd also have to define the difference between an abuser and a predator, which seems to come down heavily on the individuals "intention" and "volume of victims".

Anyway, even though I don't think we can rehabilitate predators, I don't think we have to hate them while they're locked away. We may hate them, especially if we or our loved ones are their victims. But, that doesn't really do much to them... or for them. Anger can be really useful to victims, especially when it disrupts a feeling of co-dependence on an abuser, or disrupts a connection for some other reason that the victim is drawn back to their defined role with the abuser.

What do you think about the "illusion" of Free Will? Do you think you have free will? What would it mean, in your life, to think that none of us really have free will? Did you watch the video? What did you think?
 
Free Will can be wrapped up to suit your argument, IMHO. Everyone has free will, but then we also have rules and laws in society... so do you really have free will? Well yes you still do, because you either choose (free will) to respect community law to co-exist, or you don't, thus the outcomes change accordingly.

I honestly don't think free will should even be used in relation to trauma. Having something done against you is not your choice, but the free will of the abuser, not the abusee.
 
Having something done against you is not your choice, but the free will of the abuser, not the abusee.
Yes. Did the abuser have free will? And what choices did he/she think of at the time? What factors limited the abuser? Do those limiting factors (like diagnosed psychopathy) make the abuser less responsible for the choice, without making them less dangerous to society? We may hate the psychopath, but is that hate a response to fear? And, would that fear be contained as long as the psychopath was contained?

If we discovered a vitamin supplement that cured psychopathy, would you refuse to give it to a particularly heinous psychopath out of spite, out of hatred? Or would you understand that the individual was a psychopath because of his DNA and environment and was unable to make a better choice?

Without the cure, would you feel better knowing that the psychopath (he or she) was being tortured, or raped by other inmates while serving time, or would it be okay if the psychopath was just allowed to live in confinement, away from society, unable to continue to hurt others?
 
As a recurring victim, I put myself in harm's way several times. I created a lot of opportunities to be victimized. I still hold the abusers and predators who took advantage of those opportunities accountable for their actions, but I hold myself accountable for mine as well. I made choices. Choices which were, usually, unexamined. Now that I've had time, opportunity and courage to examine those choices, I have changed how I approach my life and this, IMHO, has led to a good decade free of traumas. That's not to say that I'm responsible for what someone else did to me! It's just that, I haven't allowed myself to be overwhelmed or as vulnerable, since sorting out my core beliefs and values.

I can think of several mitigating factors for the choices I've made in my life which I regret. Factors that limited my resources to information, that overwhelmed my emotions, that spiked my anxiety, or triggered me into a past reality that clouded my judgment. I can think of these mitigating factors for my rapists as well, not that I excuse them, but that I see them as human beings; some of whom may have been rehabilitated and others who should be locked away for life.

But did either of us have the free will to make the choices that were not obvious to us... given our life experience and our intelligence levels?

If you are asked to name 3 countries in the world, what factors limit which countries you choose to say aloud? How many countries did you think of? Did you exclude your own because it was too easy/obvious? Did you choose the most obscure? How many countries DIDN'T you think of? Why didn't you remember them? Did you even try? Were there some on the tip of your tongue, that you just couldn't name? Why? Is that a limiting factor in your free will?

I'm not excusing my abusers and enablers just because I think they may have made the only choice they could live with...

I wonder why they were able to live with those choices. I wonder what it would take to change their minds. I think they have a responsibility to realign their core beliefs and values, so they can make better choices in the future.
 
Again, you wrap free will in any argument you want to suit the belief system you have chosen. Mitigating circumstances play into choices... but we all make our own choices to some degree, and those choices are our own free will to decide.

Again... you could argue we don't have free will at all living within a Governmental context, with people making decisions for us... but we elect them, we choose to live within a society of rules, or not to. You decide for you at the end of the day... nobody else does, unless you want them to.
 
Would I feel differently about them if I believed they didn't have a choice?

Nope.

Big chunk of my stuff that's exactly the case. I'm sure the vast majority are perfectly lovely people that I would cheerfully BBQ with and let watch my kids without a second thought, if I'd met them under other circumstances.

Responsible or not, culpable or not, choice or not... It doesn't change a thing having happened. Right? Whether I want to wear their intestines as a hat or can totally meet them and their family at the beach on Tuesday. Bad things happen. How much I could like or understand why the person did it, doesn't change that bad things happen. I mean, imagine a guy has a heart attack out of the blue while driving and dies. Not his choice. But the fatality MVA still happens. People still die, are still hurt, whether there is someone to feel good about being angry at, or not. It's not like the trauma is in any way affected by how understandable the cause.
 
It's not like the trauma is in any way affected by how understandable the cause
That's what I thought too, when I heard Sam Harris compare being mauled by a bear to being attacked by a human being with an axe. As if the intention of the human carried more horror with it than the intention of the bear, simply because the bear is doing what it was born to do. I like the attitude he presents about going to see the bear in the zoo, and I think there may be some people with that response to it... but, I don't think that would change how fearful one would be on their next camping trip or hike through the woods, or how many nightmares they may have, or how their lives would be altered by the missing hand, or how interrupted their minds may be by memories of the event... each time they are faced with the physical and social changes that occur as a result of that trauma.

There is another thread on here, that I thought of when I heard this speech... I can't find it. It was a discussion regarding our social acceptance of prison justice against, in particular, child molesters and in the form of prison rape.

I'm not sure what this means:
Again, you wrap free will in any argument you want to suit the belief system you have chosen.
I have not made up my mind yet about free will. I'd like to have a conversation about it.

It seems to me that Dr. Harris's argument seeks to refine the definition of Free Will. Dr. Harris's description of Free Will includes so many factors contributing to our conscious decisions that it's inconceivable to think that we have presence of mind over our choices, since we can't possibly track our own contributing factors, even if we become highly self-aware.

But, that... brings me to another part of my trauma recovery. Becoming self-aware. I was so unconscious of my mind, when I was in denial about the traumas, that I couldn't remember what I was thinking when I zoned out. I couldn't describe what I was going through, or why I made various choices. Becoming self-aware has helped me see the reasons behind some of my choices, helped me reject those reasons/replace those reasons, helped me choose to open myself up to other possible solutions. I HAD to become self-aware. My life depended on it.

I think Dr. Harris's discussion is one that is included in, maybe even comes out of, the language of recovering from trauma. He seems to be trying to use a language for the masses to identify with, since many people have not faced the need to become more self-aware. Some people arrogantly breeze through life making choices which are mostly socially acceptable, without even thinking about them, and wonder why that doesn't come naturally to other people. They dismiss the idea that their own personal experiences in life are so "normal" so "socially acceptable" and even "socially encouraged", that they wouldn't have thought to choose anything other than what our society is embracing at the time. There's usually nothing wrong at all in what they choose, except where society is racist... or in some other way the majority of society has gotten it wrong and can't see it.
 
Okay, I'll try to summarize. I want to get it right, so I'll be listening and taking notes this time. It will take me awhile.

He gives a speech for the first 35 minutes, and then sits down for a Q&A session. His speech says it all. Other people confront him about his viewpoint though, in the Q&A, which does help clarify his perspective a bit.
 
Here is a better summary than I could write, and it includes many good points for discussion to boot!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/books/review/free-will-by-sam-harris.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The book is referred to as a "pamphlet" and is available for around $7. I have not purchased it.

This discussion fascinates me and excites me because I believe that human beings are the most incredible creatures due to their ability to, eventually, become aware of a problem, and then discuss among themselves what it means and how to classify it, and then work toward a solution.

I hope the NY Times book review helps!
 
Last edited:
Here is another review, this one from Daniel Dennett, who picks apart Sam Harris's argument with a fine toothed comb. :) It's a very good read, as is Dr. Harris's book (I'm sure... ;) ). In Dr. Dennett's review, he counters with his own argument regarding Free Will which is just as fascinating, and still supports many of the things I have come to believe about mine and others' actions.

I think there are mitigating circumstances, but I don't think the mitigating circumstances excuse the bad behavior. I think the bad behavior should be condemned and corrected, if possible, not necessarily punished, shamed and shunned.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top