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News Looking For Positive Role Models - Film And Print...

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Eleanor

MyPTSD Pro
I have been thinking a lot about how we get "better." And one problem I have both as a wife and a mother is that I just don't really KNOW what "good" or "healthy" is supposed to look like. I got the wrong habits from my parents. My H got appalling habits from his. So what SHOULD we do, knowing we shouldn't do those things?

When my daughter was born I looked and looked (still do) for good information on healthy parenting. I found lots of stuff on motor and language developmental milestones, and some on cognitive and social milestones, but almost nothing on emotional ones. I found lots and lots of descriptions of bad parenting practices - I know enough about that thank you so much - but not much, hardly any narrative accounts of good parenting. Or marriage.

I am asking for examples of good marriages and parenting in novels, biographies t.v. shows and movies.

Here is an example. I love N.C.I.S. Why? In part because one of the core issues in our family is handling anger and learning to handle anger. The main characters in NCIS all have character flaws. Gibbs over the years has gotten a lot better - gone from being driven by rage (albeit mostly on a tight rein) to being much more flexible and nuanced in his responses. Tony, well, that is a long complicated story, but he's gotten better too. When I go into difficult situations where I am likely to either fold or get really really angry and do/say stupid stuff I 'invoke" Gibbs - I prime myself to act like him. And it works. I do much better, I stay calmer, I am not so reactive. I talk less (good since I tend to talk a LOT when uncomfortable.)

A friend of mine really like the marriage in Field of Dreams.

What models do you have? Suggestions?
 
Why idolize something that is fake? Those relationships are unattainable and contain nothing like in real life. Why not choose REAL role models? I think that would be more productive.

I'd go so far as to say that idolizing something that isn't real could be counterproductive in that you're setting yourself up for failure by trying to reach unattainable standards.

Real life is nothing like film and such, so why not find people who live in the real world and still have strong healthy relationships?
 
Great question! (Not that I have a great answer. LOL)

My personal favorite "good marriage" was a real life one. At one time, as a part of my job, I hauled a lot of hay. Pretty much a pickup load every other day. One of the places my employer bought hay was an older couple. Actually, they were well into their 80's. She was a feisty woman, who had an old horse that she road nearly everyday. He was a sweet, kind, dignified gentleman. It was obvious that they adored each other.

One day I mentioned to her how much I enjoyed being around them, because their relationship seemed so special. She explained that they had met when she was 16 and he was in his early 20's, when he came to work on her father's farm. Neither of them had ever even gone out with another person. They had survived the Depression and WWII, they had lost a child...... It was obvious that, when she looked at him, she still saw the handsome young man she had married. (Even though now he had health problems and she was forever looking out for him, that he didn't over do.) He pretty obviously still saw the 16 year old farm girl he had married. When she finished telling their story, she looked across the hay loft towards him and said, "It hasn't always been easy, but it's been worth it." That line has stuck with me, for a lot of years. The last time I saw the 2 of them, they were out along their driveway, planting trees....

My T has written quite a bit of stuff on relationships. He says that "mutual respect" is essential, as well as effective communication. (Which means taking the time to make sure that the hearer heard what the speaker actually meant.)
 
I'm a bit too intellectual for my own good, so I like looking at patterns in mythology and folklore. There are a lot of good examples of archetypes for good values, and also examples of destructive pursuits and (depending on the culture) their repercussions.

I also love NCIS and I think my desire for character driven stories is sometimes in finding these patterns of behavior. Criminal Minds, while potentially triggering for some, also focuses on dynamic characters with strong personalities and what's most helpful for me with that show is the concept that choosing one's own family can work with the right situations and people in play. I find episodes that focus strongly on the interpersonal relationships in the team, particularly off the clock, make me a bit more hopeful because the friendships are believable and diverse.

Why idolize something that is fake?
Why not choose REAL role models?
I don't think it's necessarily about the fictional person so much as identifying the helpful values that are shown through the character attributed for them. If I try to treat a situation like I think a mythological hero would it's because that to me is an easy way to strive for bravery, evenness of temper, and perseverance. It would be just as effective to use a real life role model as long as you can clearly come up with those attributes. But a lot of us don't personally know very many people who show the qualities we need clearly, and if you use historical figures often they've been boiled down to what they did and have less depth of character than literary or other fictional figures.

I think it just helps set up a (possibly subconscious) intent. For example it would appear that to the OP "Be like Gibbs" is an easy way to set up an intention to strive to be calm, non-reactive, and to say only what needs to be said. But if you're stressed having a character in your head can be helpful to some people to remember all of those qualities. Helpful for some, not for others.
 
Two really good books for parenting that talk about acknowledging the way kids feel are "How to Speak so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Speak" and "1-2-3 Magic". The second one sounds like a wonderful parenting method, but I don't know anyone it's actually worked for, but the information is good.

I love it when I can talk with other parents but that's hard since I don't like to be around people much. However, at my school there are a lot of parents with younger kids and so at lunch we often trade parenting stories and that is helpful. The more you can connect with real parents even if it's through a parenting group online, the better I think it will be.
 
Why idolize something that is fake? Those relationships are unattainable and contain nothing like in real life. Why not choose REAL role models? I think that would be more productive.

Because good looking fake is better than clearly bad real. I would love to have REAL role models. But I don't have any. Both our families of origin are seriously screwed up (albeit in different ways) and everyone we know is ... as or more screwed up than us. I don't so much mind missing the ideal, but I'd like to have a decent ideal to aim at.

We have two good T's. Both of whom deny being... undamaged themselves. They are helpful. But they are T's. Not living role models who you can see how they act in real life.
 
@scout86 thank you for that story. It is so hopeful. Because I sometimes doubt that kind of thing even IS possible. I wish I knew them. Very infrequently I meet someone who... I just wish I could follow them around every day for a year and .... soak up what they are. I never can, and often they don't live close enough to be regularly available, and I'm awful old to be doing that kind of thing anyhow.

Respect and good communication, that's got to be right. And ... I need to see more examples of how it works. I get the theory. I get the rules. I just ... have trouble putting it into practice. Like learning the rules of swimming without every having seen someone actually swim. It is just a lot harder if you don't know what it looks like in practice.

There are a lot of ok parents here. And I do talk to them. But... I am so... picky? No, aware of problem practices. I was seriously emotionally neglected as a kid, and I think that is pretty much SOP around here. Maybe generally. People here are pretty ok with traditional methods of discipline and socialization that I am not keen on. For example: in second grade people are now having, sharing and telling secrets. This is big stuff in my view. I think children need to learn important stuff about secrets - what is in fact private information, what kind of secrets need to be kept, what kind need to be told, what the stakes are when you tell someone else's secrets, what the price is for having your own. Important stuff. I am apparently the only person who thinks this is worth... noticing.

Sigh.

I know something needs to be done... but I have no idea WHAT.

Thank you for the suggestions @Kefira and @JEKBreatheandBelieve. Criminal Minds is too scary for me! I love the characters tho... I'll look at those two books too, thank you for pointing me toward them.
 
You know, @Eleanor, the best part of being around that couple, the best part of the story, was the "It hasn't always been easy but..." part. And, yeah, to know that it's possible is cool!

My T has sort of done a study on what he calls "superlative relationships." He shared a bunch of the information in a big, fat, 3 ringed binder of potential homework. I keep telling him he should write a book, because it's great. He says he doesn't think he could stay focused on one topic long enough to do that. LOL

Some of the interesting stuff I remember.

The couples with this kind of relationship come in all shapes and sizes. There may or may not be an age difference. Many of them are in their second marriage. In some cases, one partner started out with major issues and the other "rescued" them. (Think PTSD suffer/supporter, for example) Lots of possible combinations. What seemed to be the common thread is "Love". To be honest, maybe because of somethings in my own childhood, the use of the word "love" creeps me out a little. He means "LOVE". The real deal. Like the Biblical description you find in Corinthians. Where each partner sincerely cares about the other, respects the other, and wants the other to grow and be the very best version of themselves they can be. As opposed to "I said I love you therefore I can do what ever I want to you and it's ok." There's more, but I don't remember it all and couldn't do it justice here anyway. The thing is, in that kind of relationship, you get to make mistakes and it's ok.Not that it has no consequences or no one ever feels hurt. More like everyone knows that everyone else really cares and is really trying. It isn't about being perfect, it's about never losing sight of the value of the other, and REALLY seeing the value.

It seems to me that where a lot of "relationships" go wrong is one or both partners cares more about themselves and what they want/need than they do the other. You can't each give 50%, you each give 110%.

Secrets....... they are different things to different people. They are about power and control and safety. But maybe, sometimes they are about safety for the "bad guys". I almost think there is a difference between a "secret" and information you chose to keep to yourself. What do you think?
 
@ Scout, I would love a copy of that binder! Maybe he could just scan and post the pages? Or I could send him a check and he could take it to Kinko's and they could make and mail me a copy?;) I need the little footprints on the floor to follow so I don't step on my H's feet all the time, and he can stay off mine. Both of us are kind of fragile in some ways, and we don't have realistic expectations, or know what they ARE.

My college students mostly show up with some story about a secret they promised to keep that they shouldn't have. I think learning the line between what ought to be private and what need not be private is tricky. I don't have a rule. And telling someone a secret, even a trivial one, and having them blab (2nd graders are not great self-regulators of behavior) leads to full blown feelings of betrayal. So the emotional stakes are high. And it seems to require making character judgments. Except for kids their characters are changing. So what do I say, "G told this secret, never tell him a secret again."? But what if G learns from this? And G is otherwise a good friend? Then what? I don't know!!!! What I do know is that I think we should always add a caveat if someone asks us to keep it a secret before they tell us something, the caveat being "I will keep your secret so long as, in my judgment, keeping it will not put you or other people at risk of harm. If you don't trust me to make that call, don't trust me with the secret."

Oh, and my girl having decided something was a secret and then having it blabbed then felt SO EMBARRASSED by it that she didn't want to tell ME. And she needed to (she did eventually) because she didn't really understand what she was saying or what she meant and... Anyhow. We got it resolved but it was a mess.

@JEKBreatheandBelieve The 123 Magic one is training 101. I like Karen Pryor's book Don't Shoot the Dog best for that. And any stuff on horse training by Mark Rashid or Tom Dorrance. There are a few other horse people too. I like them better than this because the 123 stuff is "technique-y" That is, it doesn't spend enough time considering the child's point of view and what would work for them. And I'm a pretty good trainer. (Of horses, dogs, small children...) We didn't have "terrible twos." And it seems to me (as a trainer) that what they advise is insufficiently guided by an understanding of children's cognitive and emotional development. So just unemotionally walking away from a child with serious separation anxiety is, I think, not terribly helpful to the child. PANIC is hardwired in to little kids when their parent leaves. They SHOULD panic for heaven's sake. The fact that it is inconvenient for us is our problem, and we are not entitled to just ignore them and let them sort it out on their own with all the resources of a two or three year old! Kids grow out of stuff, they do. The serious separation anxiety just... ends about age 3. Makes sense when you think they are ready to go out and explore the world a bit on their own. But that doesn't mean you can't seriously traumatize them or give them weird attachment stuff before they are done with it.

Considering the Horse is one of my all time favorite books. And Rashid has a REALLY interesting chapter on animal trauma at the end of Whole Heart, Whole Horse.

The problem (for me) with parenting is that just about the time I get one stage figured out, she is on to the next! The Talking so Kids... is one I will look at more.

And the problem for my H and I is that we both have some degree of structural dissociation - so the ANP's get along fine. Swimmingly. Nothing defeats us. But then there are the dratted EP's who show up and throw great honking monkey wrenches into the works. So... we are a long long way from normal. We are both getting to know the dissociated bits, but they can be MOST unpleasant. If we were each whole, maybe we could work our way out, but... we don't know how the EP parts should act... What does reasonable adult PANIC at threats to attachment look like? Or do adults just not have this reaction? I don't have a clue.:banghead:
:nailbiting:
 
Oh, sorry. I'm thinking structural dissociation thoughts all the time since I learned about it. ANP stands for "apparently normal personality." EP stands for "emotional personality." So what happens in structural dissociation is that when a kid grows up with parents who are either emotionally neglectful or abusive or both, the kid's emotional systems don't get well integrated with each other. And strange things happen as a result. The EP's are the bits that stay too activated or are to painful to integrate into the "ANP" - typically EP's are organized around FEAR (system that alerts us to possible source of bodily harm) PANIC (system that motivates us to cry for our mommies and look for home, and that creates the feeling of anxiety) RAGE (anger, the fight impulse when we are being attacked and can't hide or run) and in cases of sexual abuse LUST (the mating instinct and physiological systems.) The other systems, SEEKING (the bit that generates interest and enthusiasm and explores the world and gets our metabolic and other needs met by finding external resources) CARE (the "parent instinct" or love) and PLAY (the part that learns and has fun and forms friendships) tend to integrate themselves into a personality that can go to work or school and seem "normal" to others. If these systems don't integrate - that is learn how to be minimally activated at the same time and share information and consciousness - then they stay more or less distinct. So RAGE takes all the others off line, and an EP that is the activation of that system will not have access to the mental skills and memories of the other systems. Memory is state dependent. EP's that form and don't integrate in childhood learn from when they are active, but their thinking and behavior tends to remain fairly rigid compared to the ANP, which is more flexible than they are, but still not as flexible as a a person all of whose emotional systems are integrated and thus potentially available to contribute to a response to the world is.

Does that brief a description make sense?
 
I just want to say that I don't like the whole approach of 1-2-3 Magic, but there are some good explanations of how kids react to things and developmental understandings. We sometimes use the counting and the take-a-breaks but in general I don't like the technique. My favorite parts were for understanding how the child reacts. The other book is 100 times better in terms of communicating with your child and problem solving.
 
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