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Relationship Toxicity, Manipulation, Narcissism... Let's Have A Chat.

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dulcia

MyPTSD Pro
Narcissistic is a term that is often overused and attributed. Here is the Mayo Clinic definition Narcissistic personality disorder - Mayo Clinic

Manipulative definition from Cambridge Dictionary: manipulative Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Toxicity, or toxic relationships, as discussed in a Psychology Today article:
Dead Link Removed

In the definitions of narcissistic personality disorder, manipulative, and toxic relationships, there are things that I consider symptoms of/things that come up with PTSD. Is there not overlap? Is it simply just an overlap of symptoms without any correlation between NPD and PTSD? Relationships with a PTSD sufferer do not have to be toxic ones; there are plenty examples on this site of that. Do PTSD relationships just have a higher chance of being toxic? (Duh, right?)

Disclaimer: My SO is a liar and a cheater and an ass. I am co-dependent and have preexisting self-esteem and trust issues that have since been further reignited. I have also recently become aware that my depression meds are increasing my anxiety to higher than ever. I need to just walk away, as I truly think that is the best outcome for both of us at this point. I have most likely allowed this behavior for so long because of his PTSD. I understand that PTSD does not cause lying, cheating, and abusive behaviors, and that those are not symptoms. Despite this, I can't shake the voice in my head that tries to rationalize his behavior as a byproduct of his PTSD and the situations he experienced that caused his PTSD. What about the good parts of him? The glimpses of the decent human? Does the shared darkness inside of him overpower that good at this point?

I haven't been in the forums much recently. I feel like a broken record at this point and I don't know what to do. Rather...I know what I should do and don't want to do it. Your advice is great and I'm sure I'll get similar advice on this thread. I don't mind hearing your advice, but I would also like to spark a discussion on narcissism, manipulation, and toxicity vs. PTSD and get your opinions. I would also like to know, if these things exist in your relationship, how do you deal?

Thanks for listening.
 
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My SO is a liar and a cheater and an ass.
You can be a liar, a cheater, an ass with or without PTSD. You can also be a loving, kind empathic person with or without PTSD. Or somewhere in between.

It might be an ideal time to put away that broad brush you have in your hands. Paint drips, colours bleed. Things can get ugly. I would look at this
My SO is a liar and a cheater and an ass.
and this
I am co-dependent and have preexisting self-esteem and trust issues
and leave the PTSD out of it. Imho that is just a distraction.

Good luck to you.
 
No, no, no. What does having PTSD have to do with how kind or moral you are? I know you didn't mean it this way, but I find this a bit offensive... People with PTSD are most likely to have been victims of these kinds of people, rather than be them ourselves. For example, people wouldn't be on here supporting you - they wouldn't give a crap.

I never take my anxiety out on anyone, sometimes I suffer from low self-esteem and I isolate, but I'd never be cruel and unkind to anyone; my boyfriend and i never argue and he says I'm one of the most lovely people he has ever met. I think your current boyfriend must have put an idea in your head about it being PTSD behaviour to try and justify and get away with his abuse of you.
 
Also, the thinking patterns you're having are typical of anyone in an abusive relationship - it can be really hard, and you can feel so twisted up. I do feel for you, it is really hard especially when you are anxious or depressed yourself (though how much of that do they cause?). I think it's about understanding how an abusive relationship impacts you and effects you - have you read about trauma bonds? Lundy Bancroft is a brilliant person to read - Why Does He Do That? Will help you understand the abusive mentality and the sense of entitlement that these men have. Also, forums for women in abusive relationships are also helpful. Also, are you sure you are co-dependent? That can often put the weight and blame on you and give yourself an unnecessary label: abusive relationships work a bit like Stockholm Syndrome - they don't necessarily mean there is anything wrong with you and mostly you will have come from a toxic, if not abusive family, that term is kind of like blaming you for staying, rather than having an understanding of the dynamics within an abusive relationship and how trauma bonds bind you to it. Knowledge and support will help you find a way out, it's really hard because of the strength of trauma bonds and how abuse breaks you down, but you can do it with the right help - just try and find an organisation who can help support you and start reading - not things that will explain and excuse HIS behaviour, but things which will empower you and help your understanding.
 
I don't know if he's put it in my head, @heyheyhey. But I think over the years I've morphed his sh*tty behavior and PTSD into one to try and justify things in my head for myself. Sometimes it is hard to separate for me, though.... For example, when escalating he has a pretty standard pattern he follows: starts using a harsher tone during a conversation about our relationship (to include sarcasm, multiple questions directed at me in rapid fire, use of fake "pet names"); introduces and becomes fixated on a topic unrelated original conversation (anti-sanctuary city funding and hiring freeze); focuses the conversation on my connection to the unrelated topic (you supported this and I can't be with someone who thinks like that); introduces insults/belittling comments (you are so immature to support something like that. you don't understand the real world but you think you do just because you went to *insert college name here*) while simultaneously framing himself as more superior (I actually experienced the real world and I know what it's like while you live in a little bubble); ignores any and all grounding statements (I don't want to argue, let's talk when you are more calm, etc.) and obsesses over the unrelated topic...... Things go a few different routes from there depending on my reactions. This exact scenario has happened so so so many times that I've considered it PTSD because it is the identical situation over and over again. It is so predictable that I don't even argue back or try to rationalize (which yes, I shouldn't anyway) because I know for certain that all the "this is how I really feel" and "I'm finally saying how I really feel" will be replaced with "sorry" and "I didn't mean it" sometimes immediately after. It is frustrating he can't see that himself in the moment, but I understand the PTSD side of that.
 
Thank you so much for the info. I guess I don't really know for sure how much co-dependence plays into this, but this is not my first time in this sort of situation which is why I recognize that some of the flaws involved are my own.

not things that will explain and excuse HIS behaviour, but things which will empower you and help your understanding.
For what it's worth, I have recently started seeing a psych to work on me, since obviously on he can work on him.
 
You know this is what I cannot for the life of me understand, why do people with internet access who read a "definition" on a website with more disclaimers than you can count think suddenly they have the education/expertise/experience/tools to suddenly say to themselves "ah ha this is the diagnosis".
You can underline/highlight most any lay "definition" of a disorder and find some spectrum of it in most people. Example: I daydreamed therefore I must have a disassociative disorder - OMG OMG panic I am disassociative!!!! (sarcasm warning) Doing this for anyone other than youself makes even less sense to me.
I wish you the best of luck in addressing issues in your relationship and hope only for your safety and happiness. That said, psychological sluthism based on the interwebs typically is not helpful. If you are dealing with all these issues as individuals (ptsd/depression/anxiety) I would hope you might seek some qualified help in the areas of distress in your relationship.
 
Nodding [added in edit, to Tired Texan] there was a post between yours and my reply... (yup, yup, yup and good on you for such a candid self assessment) - "I guess I don't really know for sure how much co-dependence plays into this, but this is not my first time in this sort of situation which is why I recognize that some of the flaws involved are my own."

Codependence, communication styles or lack of communication, boundaries or lack of em... all are factors.
 
Have to put my thinking cap on for this one and will be back later... this is super nuanced for my mister and me, but we coexist with some of these behaviors on one or both of ourselves, "I would also like to spark a discussion on narcissism, manipulation, and toxicity vs. PTSD and get your opinions. I would also like to know, if these things exist in your relationship, how do you deal?"
 
A quote from the link @Zoogal posted, which leads me to believe I may have been preemptive in introducing Narcissistic Personality Disorder in my post. But I didn't include it for the sake of diagnosis, nor did I make the claim of diagnosing anyone, @Abbii. I merely included it as a point of reference, along with definitions of other terms that are not disorders or diagnoses, since I am well aware that the term "narcissistic" gets thrown around.
 
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