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News Why It's So Hard To Talk To White People About Racism

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Would you mind explaining where my advantage kicks in for me specifically?

Specifically, if you show up for a job interview or to rent a house and are white, well dressed, male, and qualified the people doing the hire will reliably look at you and see a potential hire.If you show up and are all those things and black - the people doing the hiring will reliably write you off a significant percentage of the time. It is possible for you to "present well" in a way it is not possible for many many other people, and not only in terms of race.

Do you think it matters to me in the slightest that there are many successful straight white males?

Apparently not. The focus here is not on the individuals - but on the patterns that determine how groups of individuals get treated. Some individuals who have everything going against them are successful (lucky them) most are not. That is what it means to "have everything going against them." Individuals matter. You matter. And the fact is that you have a better set of life chances than someone situated just like you who is not-white. Or a member of another group that our society codes negatively.

Do you think it matters to me in the slightest what wrongs are happening to others, when my societal oppression is largely ignored?

Again, apparently not. And here is why I think you might want to entertain the possibility of caring about those people as well as yourself. Compassion makes us better people. Sometimes even happier. Justice is justice and fairness is fairness. People who get a bad shake do better when they work together, and often times can help each other in unexpected ways. People who have "invisible" illnesses are at a particular disadvantage, and ignoring the plight of others doesn't do anything to help that, in particular it doesn't make them any more likely to recognize and support you.

I temporarily worked in the financial aid department of a local community college and helped others find scholarships that were completely unavailable to me including people in the LGBT community and racial minorities.

It is not an accident that these things exist. They were all created in living memory. And they were created - usually by people in or who loved people in those groups, because it was what they could do to make things better for the people who came after them. If you don't know who Eunice Shriver is - her story might be pretty interesting to you. Her sister had Down syndrome and... well it ended badly for her. And she took it as her mission to help people with disabilities (mental and physical). She is a big reason we have the ADA and can even talk about mental health. She didn't need to be concerned about others, and had a pretty rough go of it herself in lots of ways, but she used what she had to great effect.

What is my truth is that the so-called "privilege" is not worth the inherent lack of opportunities for a poor, underprivileged, straight, white male.
So you wouldn't trade... what for what? Worth it? The point is that no one GETS TO TRADE. Ever. For any reason.
 
I'm not sure if that power has to be part of a power structure that supports a positive bias toward you.
I don't think it has to be. South Africa and Apartheid comes to mind. It was minority rule, and not popular. Effectively, a racist dictatorship. I think the same would likely hold true in many places that were 'claimed' by a white European power - the places that got re-named as colonies.

Side note: the segregation and privilege issues began in South Africa with the Dutch colonies in 1652, Capetown, and continued with the British takeover in 1795. It did not become a written policy until 1948. The re-settlements (displacement of over 3.5 million non-white South Africans from their homes) began in 1960, it was made illegal for non-whites to hold office in 1970, at which time all black people lost their citizenship. They were re-classified as tribal (remind anyone of Native American/US gov't. relations?) and further restricted in terms of land. International trade sanctions against South Africa under apartheid really increased in pressure through the 1980s (uprisings had been occurring throughout all these years), and the process to dismantle it was finally initiated in 1990. It wasn't until the general election of 1994, where non-whites were allowed to participate and re-join the government, that Apartheid was considered to be officially 'over'. And racism is still rampant and seriously violent in South Africa. As of 2012, the non-profit international group called Genocide Watch conducted a full study of the race relations and associated violence, and ranked SA as being at the sixth stage of a seven-stage process towards genocide, stage seven being extermination.

Oh, the world.
 
@joeylittle Coming from there you have your information. Hard to read it growing up in it through it and surviving it. To make it even harder I had reverse racisim in the USA at the grand age of 12 because you know what was going on in South Africa was my choice NOT. I guess I am still affected by this and is a great part of my trauma.
 
Hard to read it growing up in it through it and surviving it.
I did not know that, Night. I hope my summary didn't make it seem like minimizing. I'm more always struck by how, in the US, global events of major significance were just (and are just) routinely under-reported and not tied into our school systems enough. So I didn't want to just say "apartheid" without making sure it was more than just a word that people associate with Nelson Mandela and South Africa.

That must have been very, very intense for you. Yes, I can see how it would be a great part of your trauma. How could it not be, you know?
 
I cannot completely agree with the statement that one must be in a position of power (authority) to be racist. Louis Farrakahn is not in a position of real authority, and yet he is very clearly a racist. Al Sharpton, again a person in no real place of authority and yet he is a racist. The new black panthers are also another example.

A person who demeans, denies, or physically attacks a person strictly because of race, is acting in a racist manner.

In this country, I follow politics, and I pay attention to what political candidates say and how they express their philosophical belief. I strongly did not agree with President Obama and his vision for America, and so I did not vote for him. And guess what? I get called a racist because I didn't vote for Obama. And not only that, nobody called all the blacks who voted for Obama were not called racist.

Many of you have posted that white privilege allows me, a white male, to walk down the street and be viewed as safe, Perhaps that is true, if viewed by whites and yes the Police. However if I am walking down the street in a predominately black neighborhood, then I am looked at with suspicion and distrust.
Here is another thing no one has mentioned, but it needs to be mentioned. It is a fact, a sad fact, but the majority of crime in this country is committed by people who are minorities, and if the minorities do not want to be viewed with suspicion, then help us find a way to reduce the crime being committed by these minorities.

When I was young I grew up in a white neighborhood. Many of us would get new bicycles for Christmas. Within a week of Christmas we would see groups of black kids walking in our neighborhood, and the next day we would discover several bikes had been stolen. So the next year we would get new bikes, and when we saw groups of black kids walking through our neighborhood, we took our bikes and locked them in the house. Were our actions that of a racist? Or were we taking prudent precautions based on past experiences? Idealism is one thing, but there is an ugly reality we cannot ignore.
 
Like another person said what a Minefield....

Anytime racism is mentioned to a person they feel they must defend themselves. It's like the line "beat your wife lately." there is no way to un-hear it. (Unfortunately others can't see into your soul and know one way or the other.) The more you defend it the more guilty you are perceived.

I have often found the people who yell the loudest that someone else is racist are a victim of their own perceptions. Many who see (it) everywhere see the world in black and white themselves. Their perception is the whole world is racist so you must be also.

I'm not going to entertain the notion (it) doesn't exist. There is overt and institutionalized such as the KKK members I had to protect during a march. (I found it ironic that many of the LEO's preventing the rioters from tearing them apart were black.) Then there is the unperceived that is done unconsciously due media presentations and past history both good and bad. There is the connection to that old reptile brain that different is bad. That old reptile brain good or bad is in everyone.

I've seen (it) many times before. My Dad who was a LEO in the 60'sin the south (if you live in the south you are often automatically labeled) was attacked while off duty and witnessed by our whole family by a young fellow who was putting up political signs over other political signs on poles. I'm sure my Dad was very blunt but the young fellow hit my Dad in the head with a stapler and a short struggle insured and the young man ran away. A crowd gathered around our vehicle and my dad was bleeding some so prudently we left toward our destination. The next week the politician found out about the incident and took it to the papers. He ranted and and received lots of free publicity. My Dad was suspended our house was called by many vulgar people and many threats were made. The family was afraid for a long time but I was too young to understand. I found out years later the Klan called and wanted my Dad to join.

Unknown to most was my Dad rode with one of the first in his LEO organization to ride with a black partner. He did so for many years and called him friend.

Fighting (it) that is clear, obvious, and plain is easy, Fighting what is or is perceived in someone's mind is impossible.

The point of the long story is I've seen (it) from both sides as a youngster and as an older LEO. If I see (it) I stop it but if (it) is brought up I refuse to feel guilty and I refuse to defend myself. To do so means you have already lost. (Of course these paragraphs mean I may have already lost.)
 
@Bill Dickerson ... There's a quote :

"Never explain yourself. Your friends don't need it and your enemies won't believe it."

I lived my life by that for a very long while. Still do, in fact. Although I got away from it for a time, having to justify even needing to pee? There's a healthy relationship for ya (we really need a sarcasm font).

I don't explain myself As long as I'm not kicking knowledge, or lovin on someone. ;) That's where the line changes. For me, anyhow. Instructing or sharing? That's where "Here's my thought process, & what experience has taught me, & my bias as I see it" gets thwacked down on the table. It's not owed to anyone. That's where one loses, I agree. But in failing to kick knowledge, that's where the real loss is.
 
I went looking for numbers (the way I always do) and found out (of course) that statistics are just impossible, and I understand why some people can make an entire life out of managing them. It's like dominoes, the way they knock each other down.

This statement:
It is a fact, a sad fact, but the majority of crime in this country is committed by people who are minorities
It's not true. If you go by sheer numbers:

In 2011, of 9,499,725 arrests reported:
  • whites were arrested for 6,578,133 crimes, or 69.2% of all crimes
  • blacks were arrested for 2,697,539 crimes, or 28.4% of all crimes
Russ, I think what you meant to be referring to is the relationship between percentage of crimes committed and percentage of population.

In the 2010 census (and these are the rough numbers still being used)
  • 223,553,265, or 72.4 % of the population is white
  • 38,929,319, or 12.6 % of the population is african-american
So, 12.6% of the population is arrested for 28.4% of all the crimes (there's a whole other can of worms about how to count this, but the FBI statistics are by "arrest", and there isn't a viable statistic for "committed", because that would presume that actually every crime had been solved correctly.)

This is partially how we have the perception that black (men) commit the majority of crime in the US. But this is how bias leads to prejudice.

This op-ed pieceincludes a quote from Lisa Bloom, author of Suspicion Nation
The standard assumption that criminals are black and blacks are criminals is so prevalent that in one study, 60 percent of viewers who viewed a crime story with no picture of the perpetrator falsely recalled seeing one, and of those, 70 percent believed he was African-American. When we think about crime, we ‘see black,’ even when it’s not present at all.

It's a good point. We see a white neighborhood, we don't necessarily assume we are walking into an area where criminals live - even though it's all a lot more 'grey' than it can seem. And despite all the white crime - there is no correlative bias against whites.

In this reprint from Bloom's book (Link Removed, she points out that when you look at the numbers for serial killers arrested/identified, mass-murderers, school shooters, rampage attackers - the vast majority of these crimes are committed by whites. Even more common (unfortunately) offenses, like drunk driving - 1/8th of the white population was arrested, as opposed to 1/24th of the black population.

Burglary:
  • 2.3% of the white population.
  • 2.6% of the black population.

Sex offenses (not including rape or prostitution)
  • .58% of the white population
  • .48% of the black population
It's all just to say - prejudice is a quick and slippery thing - because people are really influenced by what they experience and what they hear.

Fighting (it) that is clear, obvious, and plain is easy, Fighting what is or is perceived in someone's mind is impossible.
This is the 100% truth. And race relations are just inextricably linked to perception.
 
I am really enjoying reading everyone. Thank your for your nuanced conversations.

This is an interesting article.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-diversity-makes-us-smarter/

In Brief

  • Decades of research by organizational scientists, psychologists, sociologists, economists and demographers show that socially diverse groups (that is, those with a diversity of race, ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation) are more innovative than homogeneous groups.
  • It seems obvious that a group of people with diverse individual expertise would be better than a homogeneous group at solving complex, nonroutine problems. It is less obvious that social diversity should work in the same way—yet the science shows that it does.
  • This is not only because people with different backgrounds bring new information. Simply interacting with individuals who are different forces group members to prepare better, to anticipate alternative viewpoints and to expect that reaching consensus will take effort.
 
I temporarily worked in the financial aid department of a local community college and helped others find scholarships that were completely unavailable to me including people in the LGBT community and racial minorities.
In the States there are a lot of scholarships and financial aid for students with disabilities. I find it strange that you didn't learn about these when you worked in a financial aid department of your local community college because even a quick google reveals a lot of financial aid and scholarship opportunities for many different types of disabilities. Such as:
  • General Disability
  • Chronic Health Conditions
  • Hearing Impairments
  • Visual Impairments
  • Intellectual Disabilities
  • Learning Disabilities
  • Mental Illness
  • Physical Disabilities

I imagine that as you have PTSD there would be some type of financial aid or scholarship available for you out there somewhere. It is odd that no one has pointed out these potential options for you.
 
I imagine that as you have PTSD there would be some type of financial aid or scholarship available for you out there somewhere. It is odd that no one has pointed out these potential options for you.

The fact is I have only just been diagnosed with PTSD (within a couple of months) although I am told by my T that its likely that I've had it for awhile and its symptoms have only just recently become unmanageable.

Sorry for disrupting your thread with my ventings. But when anybody tries to tell me that the word "privilege" can be associated with life it really pisses me off. It's like they are implying that my life has been all peaches and cream. In fact I can no longer participate in this discussion because I am to much of a biased observer.....and so this is my last post here. Again....sorry for disrupting this thread.
 
I wish you well @Spekx. Take care and I hope you find the support and solace on this forum that is helpful and meaningful for you.

The fact is I have only just been diagnosed with PTSD (within a couple of months) although I am told by my T that its likely that I've had it for awhile and its symptoms have only just recently become unmanageable.
I am so sorry to read this because it means you weren't getting any assistance or support and that is really rugged going. I know from experience. It is just hellish.

There are also scholarships for economic disadvantage, rurality and regionalism in Australia, as well as disabilities. I don't know how that translates in America, but I found different scholarships when I was googling, so it could be worth looking into when you have your PTSD symptoms managed. Maybe you can update the scholarship and financial aid department that you worked in (when you are much better of course) to make sure that they give students information about economic disadvantage or financial hardship, disabilities, rurality and regionalism scholarships instead of just those few minorities that you mentioned.

But when anybody tries to tell me that the word "privilege" can be associated with life it really pisses me off. It's like they are implying that my life has been all peaches and cream.
No one was saying that (this is a cognitive distortion - I have more cognitive distortions than most people, and now I am beginning to identify them.) - that was how you were choosing to interpret it. It is obvious from what you were saying that your life was not peaches and cream. You were missing the point, in my opinion. Privilege doesn't necessarily mean you have an easy life - it just means that there are a whole lot of stresses, anxieties, glass ceilings, and lack of access to basic resources like education, housing and health that you are unable to see due to your White skin privilege. And just because someone else receives some justice and a tad more fairness in their lives - it doesn't diminish you. It does mean we have to deal with some uncomfortable feelings unpacking what our Whiteness means - but that can be reinvigorating and in the end freeing.

And class is something denied in Australian and American culture. I just read a book "Unequal Childhoods Class, Race, and Family Life," With an Update a Decade Later by Annette Lareau that is very interesting about this - and the researcher herself was shocked to find that class had a bigger bearing on children's life chances than race, but it doesn't mean it isn't important for White Skin privilege to be broken apart, because for even for young middle class Black men they were followed when in the shops despite having all the middle class, social, cultural and economic capital and ongoing Ivy League university education. And telling the truth means we are all empowered to make better choices for the next generation, the planet and all our futures, in my opinion anyway. So Hey I am immeasurably privileged by my White Skin Privilege and then doubly so by my Middle Class privilege - so I think your comments that it is not so simple that class needs to be taken into account has an important point to it. (This is how I read your posts. I think it is worthy of a thread.) But it does not minimise that White skin privilege exists and is a real thing, because it does. I have to be honest and say I found it very difficult to come to terms with my White skin privilege. Very hard indeed. I find it hard to come to terms with my middle class privilege as well. The intersection of class, race and gender is amazingly complex, but we all have PTSD so we are good at complex and intricate, because you have to become so, to manage your PTSD.

Now imagine if you did get a scholarship and a poor, underprivileged, straight, white male without a mental illness with a patch of mild anxiety complained that "I don't have a mental illness, so I am not as lucky as some!"

And imagine if they went on about how they don't have any privilege, as despite having reasonable mental health, and being "Poor, underprivileged, straight, white male apparently don't exist or don't need any help". How would you feel? Do you think someone without PTSD can accurately assess what and how your life is like? You might disagree with me but I think that they won't.

Imagine if this poor, underprivileged, straight, white male (but without a mental illness) has experienced exactly the same type of trauma/s as you and that can happen - having traumatic events doesn't necessarily translate into having PTSD. So this poor, underprivileged, straight, white male is exactly the same as you but without a mental illness - and they are saying that all these people with PTSD are hogging all scholarships and really what happened with PTSD happened in the past, so people should just take responsibility and move on with it. He was able to. He has seen the movies and read the media, so the knows that all you PTSD people are dangerous and violent anyway - this is despite the research anthony has posted on this website. The facts have no bearing on how this person views you, a person with a mental illness who is getting special treatment - because you have PTSD. I don't know about you but I never feel I am getting special treatment because I have PTSD. I get reasonable accommodation sometimes but I don't get extras. And this Poor, underprivileged, straight, white male without a mental illness won't talk to you about your mental illness, he won't even enter in to a dialogue, or listen to your point of view, until you accept that he, with his mild anxiety, is just as mentally ill as well (really we are all just mentally ill people from his perspective - there should be no differentiation) and should have the same access to scholarships as you do with your PTSD. Then he switches arguments so this poor, underprivileged, straight, white male without a mental illness says that you shouldn't really be at university anyway, as you are taking a space away from a poor, underprivileged, straight, white male, like him, who is exactly the same as you but without a mental illness and it is not fair on those without mental illness. So he has exactly the same traumas as you and he doesn't have PTSD. How would you feel? How would you explain the worlds away that your experiences are to this poor, underprivileged, straight, white male? Would you think that there is a bit of thinking and pulling apart of his thinking that he might need to do to understand equity and social justice of your particular situation?

Think how you would feel - unless you have PTSD you don't really get it, there are many, many discussions on this forum about how frustrating, annoying, unkind, mind numbing, alienating and incredibly unfair that is. And that is the point of White privilege - you don't get it because you have grown up with all these unchallenged assumptions and invisible privileges.

White privilege is embedded in simple things like you walk down the street and no one assumes you are about to commit a crime or you move in and no one worries that the property values are going to fall and people assuming that all your people are criminals despite the statistics and facts that prove that this is not so. And when research shows that your community is targeted by police for offences that white people don't go before the courts for, on the whole. White privilege is embedded in your child being treated in ER and not being left to die or live with a severe disability as happened to one Indigenous woman that I know. Recently a lesbian couple that are good friends of mine didn't receive treatment for a very obvious life threatening medical condition because they were gay. That is heterosexual privilege or hetranormativity.

Privilege doesn't necessarily mean you have an easy life - it means that there are a whole lot of stresses, anxieties, glass ceilings, limited life expectancy and lack of access to basic things like education, housing and health and things, like not being seen as a real human being by other people that you are unable to see due to your White skin privilege. You are not participating in this thread any more so I will leave it at that. But I wanted to frame my answer in a direct answer to the way your presented your comments - so that you get that I read your post, heard it and responded to you.
 
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