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Did You/Do You Need to Re-learn to Sleep? How?

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Hi,
Don't want to thread hijack so starting this one here. Sleep is one of my most tenacious "symptoms". Its only improved recently and if my symptoms go up at all it bottoms out. Tried many things before was diagnosed and many things after. Including CBT, Being diagnosed helped a lot as conventional stuff just did not work (until recently). It works moderately well when my symptoms go below a certain level which is a more recent occurrence. In the last few weeks I have made new strides which is such a relief but its very unstable. I am back into getting very little the last few days after being triggered.

Doc said that after ptsd the brain can become more like an infants and it has to be rewired.
If you feel inclined Freida, would love to know more. The idea that my brain doesn't know how to sleep like a "normal" person resonates with me. Apparently I was fine for the first years of my life so don't believe its inherent.

I don't lie in bed tormented. I don't anticipate insomnia and build up issues to do with that. Most of the CBT didn't help as I was already doing what was suggested or it didn't work for me.

What changes in the brain with trauma? Obviously hypervigilance, intense emotional states and very obviously avoiding opening the gates for whats in there to come popping out, in sleep. Am I missing something? Thanks all!
 
Yes, my sleep doc said I needed to re-learn how to sleep! Hence, no sleep meds!

BUUUUUUUT!

I AM on meds that help overall and make sleep possible.

I honestly don’t think we can re-train the brain to sleep until we get the other issues under control. (As in, it’s a whole system thing, and sleep is just one of the wheels in the machine.)
 
I used to have atrocious insomnia and did have to re-learn to sleep. I joined an insomnia support group and while the actual program proved pretty useless, the group of people taking part in it were really great and we supported the heck out of each other. I had one friend there, who I would email with every evening as we battled insomnia together and tried to re-teach our brains to sleep. It was pretty intense. All the "fears of sleeping" came up and had to be dealt with and there were lots :rolleyes: We kind of did an exposure therapy thing re sleep and in the end it worked. I've never had bad insomnia again, since then, just the occasional night where I'll find it a bit harder to fall asleep than usual.

I think the most important thing I learned there was that with just about anything in life, you can *try* and make it work. If you put effort and work into something, it will improve. Sleep is the only thing that gets worse, the more you *try*. Sleep is about letting go. It's about not trying. It's about surrendering control. Those things can be super challenging. And our instinct is to *try* and let go. :laugh:

It's kinda hard to explain, how you can stop trying... you kinda have to trick your brain, eventually. And once it's figured it out, it's cool.

I can't really give any better advice than that, sorry.

But I can testify that it's doable.

I had atrocious insomnia from childhood trauma for 25 years. So it was a deeply, deeply ingrained pattern. And now it's gone :)
 
I now wake up about 3 hours into my sleep routinely. I just deal with it. It is part of my schedule. I make sure I have constructive things to do like painting, drawing, crocheting, whatever keeps me in a good mood. I take a supplement when I wake up that has some Melatonin in it as well as some herbs that help one of sleep. It is called MIDNITE here in the states.
 
Hi Sophy,
Thank you! Interesting. ?
I have noticed that there seem to be quite a lot of people who are still symptomatic and yet have their sleep fairly under control. There must be more I can do. What you did sounds interesting.
Sleep is the only thing that gets worse, the more you *try*. Sleep is about letting go. It's about not trying. It's about surrendering control.
Hmmmmmm..... OK. I think I strived very hard, worked very hard on it etc for many years. Especially before my diagnoses probably in the wrong way in terms of what you describe above. I never stayed in bed for hours tormented and trying to force it. Instinctually did the right thing there. But I think I wasn't listening to myself and was rather trying to make myself react to conventional sleep hygiene. It improved a lot when I allowed myself to sleep on the sofa with the lights and tele on and allowed myself to sleep in the day. When I was very symptomatic. I was sleeping 1 or 2 hours a night at that point.

But I guess it is about letting go. We need to let go in order to fall asleep. I sort of focus on that in that I try to reduce intensity and thoughts of sleep and rather work on reducing agitation, rumination, ground myself etc and get into a calm enough zone. I'm not at all sure I am working on letting go in a wider sense though. Shall consider it further. Thanks so much. I'm glad you are sleeping!

Hi Changing4Best,
Thanks so much. I think I do similar things to you. I also fill my time with things I enjoy and which calm me and put me in a good frame of mind. I don't waste my time feeling awful about not being able to sleep. I also take melatonin and does help a little I find. I hope your sleep improves!
 
yep - retraining!
The biggest challenge was breaking the connection between not sleeping and how I felt about not sleeping. One is a physical response (body wont shut down) and the other is a mental response (stress over not sleeping.)

The hardest part was that if I was in bed and awake for more than 20 minutes I had to get up, walk out of the bedroom and log what time it was and what was going thru my mind at the time. I had to wait 20 minutes then try to go to sleep. Rinse and repeat. At first I was just incredulous. I mean, I'm already not sleeping and he wanted me to get up and move around? But, as he said, I'm not sleeping anyway - I may as well do something productive.

The first pattern showed itself pretty quickly. I was so stressed out about not being able to sleep that I was actually causing a big part of my insomnia. Cognitive distortion -- imagine!
The second part was more surprising - I was sleeping more than I thought. It was in broken chunks true, but it was more hours than I realized.

So then..... :laugh: I met with a therapist who specialized in sleep disturbances. We talked about nightmares, what I was thinking when I was laying in bed, what I felt like when I got up for the 3rd or 4th day in a row with only 3 hours of sleep each night and had to go to work. As we broke it down I was able to identify distortions in my thinking that were adding to my stress. At the time I hadn't been diagnosed, but I've had insomnia and night terrors all my life so we had lots to work with.

Eventually we got my brain reset enough that it felt safe to sleep and comfortable knowing that it wasn't going to be catastrophic if I went a week or so without sleeping. I still use meds once in a while but no where like I used to. I was also able to build a whole "sleep process" that dealt with stuff like room temp, meditations, yoga blah blah so that sleep became a more friendly event.
 
@Freida Thank you! Sorry for taking so long to reply. Juggling stuff.... and trying to do more sleep! You have done an amazing job.

If I know what I do already and know and what I don't yet know then I can decide what is the next agenda for improvement! So. Ok. To be sure I understand the concept:
it felt safe to sleep
How do you do that?! That isn't one I can do really. Its the whole not being conscious and the opening the door to dreams thing.

it wasn't going to be catastrophic if I went a week or so without sleeping
Oh I'm OK with this. I think I'm so used to sleep deprivation that it is my normal. There might be part of the issue. Maybe I am too used to it being my normal.

sleep became a more friendly event.
Hmmm. I have a love hate relationship with sleep.

I was so stressed out about not being able to sleep that I was actually causing a big part of my insomnia. Cognitive distortion -- imagine!
Haha! I can. I have to say I'm lucky enough to have done some of this automatically. Even before it was advised to me with CBT that I did. I do automatically get up after 20 minutes of not sleeping and do something I like instead. I don't obsess about and don't worry about not sleeping. Until the next day. Then I hate myself.

I do relaxation videos, relaxing TV, sometimes read. Sometimes exercise if the adrenaline is driving me nuts. Write down thoughts. But what about nightmares. Maybe I need to do more affirmations about switching off and being unconscious. I'm not sure I would believe them though. We are obviously more vulnerable when asleep.
 
We are obviously more vulnerable when asleep.
Totally, but we aren’t ‘unconscious’ or comatose.

When you start digging, it becomes pretty clear that scientists don’t know much about sleep (except for the damage it can do when we aren’t getting any - that’s reasonably well documented!). The thing that distinguishes being ‘asleep’ from being ‘unconscious’ is that a person who is asleep is easily roused in comparison with a person who is unconscious.

That was helpful info for me. I’m not unconscious when I’m asleep. Actually, unusual stimulus will rouse me from sleep really quickly.

I’m different to a lot of people I guess, but I find the way i use language really important to the way my brain understands things. And being clear in my mind that I’ll be ‘asleep’, not ‘unconscious’, makes a big difference to me and how ‘safe’ sleep feels.
 
Hi @Sideways Thanks!
Totally, but we aren’t ‘unconscious’ or comatose.

OK yes. Good point! I do believe in the power of language and there is a possibility I have a verbal partial distortion relating to what sleep is. It is surprising hard for me to say the words that it isn't being unconscious. On an intellectual level I of course know it but on an instinctual level it doesn't feel right
That was helpful info for me. I’m not unconscious when I’m asleep. Actually, unusual stimulus will rouse me from sleep really quickly.
This is useful to me so thank you.
.
 
Thinking why being factually conscious isn't a reassurance to me and think it may be related to a spectrum situation. Including dissociation. A lot of my life hasn't been "conscious" to some extent or other. Factually I may have been. Not sure of definitions. All I do know is that I had no idea of what I had been doing, what had been done to me, a sense of history and a timeline. I had no sense of being sure to being present. Or sense of being able to sleep. I had times when I would collapse and be unresponsive. Sometimes with my mind present to some extent and sometimes not. The world has been a strange intangible place and sometimes, even in sleep it has been hard for me to be respond. Its a little like have two worlds. The world of here. And the other world. When I go over the border I still don't feel confident coming back on demand. For want of a better description. Sure that makes zero sense to anyone but me and probably sounds a little strange. Not quite sure how to feel confidence in this.
 
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