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Euthanasia In Netherlands For 'incurable' Ptsd

Discussion in 'News, Politics & Debates' started by RuthieJujube, May 11, 2016.

  1. RuthieJujube

    RuthieJujube Member

    Hi. I wanted to share an article for discussion. The Independent has a piece that came out today called "Sex abuse victim in her 20s allowed by doctors to choose euthanasia due to 'incurable' PTSD"

    At my worst, I remember feeling an almost "logical" desire to commit suicide. It became an ingrained part of my thought process, that I was holding out for the right day to die.

    Now I see that thinking as one of the tricks that PTSD plays on you, that you start to think suffering is the only path and death doesn't seem so bad.

    So it shocks me to think that a doctor would support death as the last line of defense. I guess I'd like to think that life can get better eventually for all of us.
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  3. Simply Simon

    Simply Simon Be Bold. Moderator Premium Member Sponsor $100+

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  4. RuthieJujube

    RuthieJujube Member

    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2016
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  5. Crow

    Crow I'm a VIP Premium Member Sponsor $100+

    From the article:
    Labour MP, Robert Flello said: "It almost sends the message that if you are the victim of abuse, and as a result you get a mental illness, you are punished by being killed, that the punishment for the crime of being a victim is death."

    For three decades this option would have been a gift to me, not a punishment. I'm immensely grateful that this was not an option because I'm starting to enjoy living.
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  6. Ava Jarvis

    Ava Jarvis Well-Known Member

    Warning: I am WAY WAY left in my views.

    First off, I think euthanasia is a damn complex issue.

    But pursuant to that, I think that while there is a contingent of people who just want to ease suffering (even if that "easement" is terminal), there is a much larger majority that believes that anything that makes you permanently disabled is worth dying over.

    Take for instance this: people who are blinded in some accident or from some brutal assault. It's terrible, but no, your life has not ended because you are now blind. But a large portion of the sighted can't imagine living without sight, and think they'd rather kill themselves than be deprived of a single sense.

    Heck, there are a lot of folks who would rather kill themselves than spend the rest of their lives in a wheelchair. Ditto for suffering from chronic pain.

    It doesn't surprise me that there are people who would rather kill themselves than ever suffer from PTSD or another mental illness. Hell, just a few weeks ago someone suggested that I take my life if I'm so wracked with pain every day.

    Suicide due to permanent disability is heavily romanticized. I've lost count of the number of fictional works where characters ask you to mercy-kill them after they get their eyeballs gouged out or are disfigured or are paralyzed or are mentally suffering. I've lost count of the number of fictional works where this is portrayed as ultimately a positive outcome for everybody, the dead included.

    Living with permanent disability is heavily stigmatized. There are very, very few fictional works where permanent disability does not relegate a main character to the sidelines. There are a LOT of fictional and non-fictional works that encourage pity for the disabled, as opposed to doing something to make their lives easier.

    Hell—it's rare for the able-bodied community to put effort into teaching the disabled how to live with their disability. When I got a cane (for a temporary disability) nobody taught me how to use it. I had to go on YouTube to learn how.

    There is something wrong all that. But at the same time, it's almost to be expected—euthanasia, like it or not, was always a part of the eugenics movement. And eugenics is one of those undercurrents of society—seemingly any society—that rears its ugly head all too easily.

    This is the heart of ableism: "You are disabled, perhaps you should consider dying, since you're nothing but dead weight to society?"

    Ableism is a lie that is treated as truth by most of society. It is one of the very last prejudices that will ever be stamped out.

    Now, all that said, am I saying that euthanasia is purely about ableism? Of course not. But if people aren't incredibly careful about euthanasia, it enables ableism.

    By nature, people aren't incredibly careful.
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  7. Ava Jarvis

    Ava Jarvis Well-Known Member

    Also an interesting exercise: count the number of disabled villains compared to the number of disabled heroes.

    Now count the number of disabled villains whose turn to villainy is inspired by their disability.

    Ableism is a real force. It already takes lives, every day. I'd hate for it to take more, but it's just gonna do that.

    And while I do use fictional works and reactions to such as a measure of the heartbeat of the societies that make them, it is often the most accurate way to do so. Fiction is more powerful and more truthful than people think it is.

    I gotta unwatch this thread and get out of here though. This whole conversation is going to damage me majorly if I let it, and I'm way too close to a trigger date for me right now. I wish in one sense I hadn't said anything, but I think ... I think possibly it was useful to have been said.

    Hope it was useful.
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  8. She Cat

    She Cat Policy Enforcement Banned Premium Member Sponsor $100+

    My views on this subject will probably turn a few heads. I'm not looking to argue my point either. I have attempted suicide 9 times since the age of 11, I'm now almost 63. 3 of those times, Drs told me I should have died and they had no clue as to why I was alive.

    I firmly believe that I (and any other person) have the right to choose to die if they wish. To me it's not a morale or religious issue, it's a PERSONAL issue, and I believe that every human being has the choice to die if they so choose.

    If I had a very close friend or family member that wanted to commit suicide, I would not stand in their way. I lost my sister to cancer a yr ago and her husband and I have discussed and wondered why she didn't take her own life, because she suffered so much at the end. Ultimately it was her choice not to, and I respected her choice and decision.

    I'm not depressed, I'm not in the throws of PTSD at present time either. I have always believed this, and will till the day I die, be it by natural causes, or by my own hand.... I have that choice and it's mine alone to make......
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  9. SpiritSong

    SpiritSong I love flowers! Premium Member Sponsor $100+

    Since PTSD is incurable for all of us, I don't believe this is the route we all should take! Life has many good parts to it, even though our condition causes us much heartache. Also, what about our loved ones? This would hurt them terribly, I would think. There has to be a better way.
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  10. Crow

    Crow I'm a VIP Premium Member Sponsor $100+

    Thing is @SheilaKathy many of us don't have loved ones to hurt. We're literally all alone. I am an advocate for people being able to decide when to end their lives. I think it's an inalienable human right. I'm just very grateful this wasn't an option for me for the past 30 years. I would have jumped at it in a minute. Now, however, I'm starting to enjoy this world so right now, no way. I also believe PTSD is curable....but for the person living in the pain and not wanting to go on while being found competant....who am I to say no?
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  11. EveHarrington

    EveHarrington _______ in progress. Premium Member

    Only in her 20's and already determined to be incurable?

    I can guarantee that she hasn't tried all of the treatments that could possibly help her.

    IMHO it's incredibly irresponsible for a doctor to sign off on PTSD in a 20-something as incurable------to the point where death is warranted.

    @Ava Jarvis I think ableism would be a great topic for a thread. I did a bit of research on my own and found a lot of great information. It was eye opening to say the least-----AND empowering because I realized I'm not alone in feeling "less than". If you want to start a thread----great (as you know more about it than I do); if not I can start one in the next few days and I hope that you join in the conversation as you're quite knowledgeable on the subject. :)
  12. Ava Jarvis

    Ava Jarvis Well-Known Member

    With regards to euthanasia, people really need to educate themselves on the thorough ins and outs of their illnesses. That is the only way to ensure that their choice is THEIR choice, and not one pressured by society, relatives, friends, random internet strangers, or government. There's a huge difference between making an ill-informed choice (I'd argue it's no choice at all) and an informed one. There's a huge difference between thinking you can't do survive as disabled, and actually doing it. Basically, I'm saying there needs to be qualified counseling for several months at least before the "safe" euthanasia is chosen.

    People should not let internalized ableism make their life-or-death choice for them. No one wants to make a choice based on a lie.

    @EveHarrington -- my education on ableism (and racism—albeit from an American, Western perspective, as how race is constructed differs from culture to culture; and classism, and homophobia, and transphobia, and the abusive societal structures in place that are supported by these prejudices, and how these structures harm everybody but the ultra-rich and ultra-privileged) came from a carefully filtered, curated, and fact-checked selection of tumblr articles and posts. Often they have links to studies and authoritative sources.

    Ableism would be a great thread --- maybe an ableism 101 to start with, since it's not a topic covered by most avenues of formal education -- but I'm probably not going to start it, because I am not healthy enough to do so.
  13. Neverthesame

    Neverthesame A Mind The Dead Have Ravaged Premium Member Donated

    Not trying to drag you back into this, as you said you weren't in a good place for this discussion right now. I'll keep my comment specific to myself and as neutral as possible, given the subject matter.

    This scenario scares the hell out of me. Of being a paraplegic, or quadriplegic. Not being able to move, is such a horrible thought to me. It's a genuine phobia for me.

    I broke my arm once a few years ago. I was in the cast for 5 minutes, before it started to sink in that I will have to keep my arm immobilised for 6 weeks. It was all I could do to keep calm. I wanted to cut the thing off so badly.

    Here's the neutral part.

    I did get used to it, to enough of an extent, so as not to cut it off. But it was bloody miserable. I can imagine that being confined to a wheelchair, would be something that maybe I could learn to cope with. Though it would not be before having to endure a prolonged period of panic.

    The thought that really, really scares me. Is more along the lines of. "What happens if I wind up a physical vegetable?"

    I can't imagine a worse hell, than having to live in my head, with this disorder running the same horror, over and over again. With no way to stop it, or communicate to anyone what I'm going through. I don't want that.

    Now I can't do anything about a sudden accident or illness causing that to happen. That's just a risk of living. But if I knew that I was going to wind up that way. Because of a progressive disease, I don't think it's terrible idea to "leave" before life becomes unliveable.

    That's my line in the sand of unliveable. At least from what my life is now. I don't think it fair to say that someone else's is wrong because it's not what I would do.

    Though at the same time, it does seem such a waste at 20 something years old.

    Not a fun topic, of that I'm sure.

    Anyways, don't feel obligated to respond to my comment if your not comfortable in doing so @Ava Jarvis. Hope you feel better soon.
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