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News Us politics - read first post before comment

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[a minimum wage I]s supposed to keep people out of poverty, just nosing the line perhaps, but most states attempt to keep the number at 1% difference either side of the line.

That's the official line, but I would argue that it is incorrect.

The early twentieth century proponents of minimum wages argued something very different, and I think that they were correct in their assessment, even though I totally disagree with their aims and objectives.

Go to economics 101 and look at supply and demand curves Supply and demand - Wikipedia

They're a useful tool for thought (in practice the only thing that you'll actually see in real life is the price and quantity where they meet in that place at that time, for that good service, and the assumptions of perfect competition and knowledge, and equilibrium are never ever met,

but the curves are still useful for thinking about what a going on).

If you raise the price of a good or service above the price that would prevail on the market, you will get:
More offered on that market
And less bought on that market

What those mean on a labour market are, fewer people employed, and more people looking for work.

That was exactly the idea of the early proponents of minimum wage laws
The Economic Theory of a Legal Minimum Wage

Sydney Webb was the leading British Fabian. The Fabians' were the main basis for the British Labour party (Marxian flavour socialism never really took hold in Britain, at least until after the war to make a world safe for Stalin).

In that linked paper, Webb is clear in his aims. A less hindered market for labour had created too many opportunities for ethnic minorities, women, people with disabilities, people with poor education...

In short, it provided too many job opportunities for the poorest and most vulnerable in society, far too many for Webb's liking.

What Webb points to, is the minimum wage law in the Australian state of Victoria, pricing (and forcing) ethnic minorities, women, young people, people with disabilities OUT of the labour market.

Webb isn't the only economist who sought this at that time, I can pull out some other examples.

Their aims are absolutely Orwellian, but I think that their conclusions about the effects of their proposals are correct, that pricing out of the poorest and most vulnerable, is what economic theory tells us will happen. These guys wanted everyone but WASP males, out of the labour market.

It is only later that sugar coated lies about minimum wages being to protect the poor, and to raise the incomes of the poor, appeared.

Here's the reductio and absurdum of those lies.

If raising a minimum wage above the minimum that prevails on an unhampered market, raises up those who were earning that minimum...

Why be so mean and only peg it at say $14/hour?

Why not be more generous and raise it to $100/hour? Or even better, $1,000 /hour? Just think what that would do for prosperity, and why be so mean to stop at 1,000 /hour? Why not $1,000,000?

Can you see the problem?

Assuming no other changes in the economy (like Weimar or Zimbabwe levels of inflating the money supply), how many people would still be in paid employment?

Everyone capable of understanding numbers would be looking for work at that rate, but hardly any one would be hiring at those rates.

The role of a minimum wage is to coerce employers into not hiring people from groups who are perceived (correctly or incorrectly - it's a perception, not an established fact) to have lower productivity.

In very crude terms, it stopped recent immigrants and blacks from under bidding white unionised labour on the job market.

Further on in Webb's paper, he's suggesting state unemployment pay.
Before minimum wages, and union coercion, there was not long term unemployment. There might be short periods of widespread unemployment, as an inflationary Bubble burst and the mal investments were liquidated, but people generally found new jobs very quickly.

The post world war 1 situation in Britain is exceptional, unionisation was encouraged in the war, and there were laws preventing the reduction of wages. There was also very generous unemployment dole. The british pound had also been drastically over printed (the war was founded largely by money printing)

The pre war pound was a measure of gold, and exchanged for $4.86 us gold dollars. Due to the amount of paper notes printed, it would have exchanged for $3.20 after the war.

The British government decided (in absolute lunacy!) To go back onto gold at the old par of $4.86. this meant that the pound was drastically over valued, making british exports vastly in competitive, compared to imports. Hence Britain had massive long term unemployment and economic depression between the wars, even when everywhere else was booming in the 1920s.
The cause was governmental and was nothing to do with any inner contradictions or tendencies of unhampered markets.

Again in the great depression and in the Hoover interventions (Carried on by FDR in the new deal - the painting of Hoover as somehow laissez-faire was FDR election propaganda, and doesn't stand scrutiny) the long term unemployment was caused by government forcibly preventing the markets to clear.

And the brunt of the unemployment was borne by the poorest and most vulnerable (check out the ethnic and religious composition of the people chosen for Eleanor Roosevelt's model communities in West Virginia, to see what the racial and religious prejudices of the administration were, and who was to be "helped" at the expense of whom).
 
And the brunt of the unemployment was borne by the poorest and most vulnerable
I doubt there's a way to avoid that.
If you raise the price of a good or service above the price that would prevail on the market, you will get:
More offered on that market
And less bought on that market
What those mean on a labor market are, fewer people employed, and more people looking for work.
One near by major city has voted to drastically raise the minimum wage, so this topic has been discussed frequently of late. Apparently there's some evidence that, in Seattle, when the minimum wage was raised, hours worked by minimum wage workers went down.

(Did I mention I HATED economics when I was in school......) There are places on those curves where "elasticity" enters in. If you are asked to raise wages above the point where you can afford it, you will cut hours. But, if you cut hours too much, work doesn't get done and income goes down anyway. On the other hand, if you have enough potential workers, you won't raise wages at all, ever, regardless of what people need to live, because it's an input expense and the goal, usually, is to limit expenses to maximize profits.

And yet, people have to earn enough, somehow, to survive.

Personally, I have concerns about raising the minimum wage, and they are (sort of) the ones @Anarchy raised. And yet, people have to live. (Well, technically, I guess they don't have to live. The other option is dying.) Somehow, you have to be able to get those basic needs on that famous hierarchy met. And, right now, today, in this country, that's really hard for a lot of people to do. Sounds to me like the Republicans have chosen to address that by cutting back on things like health care and education for those who are having the hardest time making a go of things as is. In my simple minded way of looking at things, educating people and keeping them healthy is a bottom line way of giving them a chance to be self supporting. Am I missing something here?

@Anarchy , do all those economists actually offer a solution?
 
he coercion Bernie used was false reporting of profits to his shareholders. That was all the coercion he needed to continue to keep his scheme rolling, until it didn't.

Hmmmm, that's not a way that I would use the word coercion. I'd call that lying, defrauding, mis representing.

What Bernie and Carlo didn't do, was threaten people in order to force them into their schemes

The state sector schemes have the same fraudulent and highly unstable structure (no underlying investment, outgoings are paid from new contributions) as Ponzi schemes - they are Ponzi schemes.

And I want to stress that government bonds are not an asset, they are promises to tax the population even harder at some point in the future. There's no bank vault somewhere with people's lifetime of contributions sitting in it.

There is the credible threat of fines, caging and of force used to get people to pay into the state sector schemes.
 
Hmmmm, that's not a way that I would use the word coercion. I'd call that lying, defrauding, mis representing.
I'm going to "like" that part of your post, for sure. I can see saying he "coerced" people in the sense that he conned them. And maybe the word can have both meanings. I'm thinking you both agree that what he did was wrong.

The rest........ I guess I'm not totally ready to accept that government necessarily HAS to be a part of the problem. Although I agree that it often IS part of the problem. It's also an attempt at allowing people to live together in harmony, with some sort of fairness and safety. Maybe that's not realistic...... But, with no government at all, you REALLY have social Darwinism. (Maybe not even 'social', just Darwinism.)
 
@Anarchy , do all those economists actually offer a solution?

A minimum wage that is below the lowest that anyone has actually agreed to work for in That area, is harmless, and for people who believe that minimum wages raise worker's earnings, it's also useless.

Here's the thing about government's role in healthcare and a lot of other things. If regular working people earned enough money, we wouldn't need any help or any subsidies. As it happens, incomes have not kept pace with expenses.

The Roderick Long piece about government "fixing" health care is appropriate there. As part of the story of how expenses came to rise faster than incomes.

I'm not sure of the date, I think that it was 1890s that the AMA got to cartelise and to control medicine. Lot's of medical schools were closed, and their graduates were no longer allowed to practice.

This achieved the aim of reducing the supply of doctors and medical services on the market (with all of the usual propaganda for public consumption about raising quality).

The contracts with fraternal societies were also outlawed and stamped out.

As well as limiting the places where quacks can train, there were also minimum times put on training. Bright students were not allowed to progress faster (so really bright students don't go for medicine, they go to where they can earn more sooner in their careers).

This is the same pattern as medieval guilds

The number of trainees is limited, and the length of training is lengthened ridiculously in order to limit supply and raise prices.

It also has the effect of allowing medical doctors to be incredibly arrogant and obnoxious, because people don't have many options for alternative places to go.

The argument that the restrictions are necessary to maintain quality, don't hold water. There's no point in having a good standard doctor (they're not gold standard, but just for argument we can assume that they are) if you can't get to see him or her in a timely manner, and can't afford to pay.

This sort of enforced reduction in supply (and the only ones who can legally initiate force in society is the government!) Occourance at so many other places In The economy as well as medicine. It's the prime reason behind having tarriffs
Tarriffs either shut out or render more expensive, goods and services from outside

That allows supply to be limited by internal producers, and prices to be raised, screwing the domestic consumers.

To an extent, you get the worst of both worlds. The big guys get privilege to import from cheap labour areas (exporting the jobs), and then to charge the impoverished consumers the monopoly price, because government is forcibly keeping other suppliers and competitors out of the market.

There isn't an optimum size for cooperation in the division of labour (Marxist argument against division of labour and invocations of "alienation" are wet)
It's one of the few good things attributed to David Ricardo (it was more likely James Mill who came up with it, Ricardo didn't seem to know much about it).
The law of comparative advantage
It applies to individuals just as much as nations
That it benefits all of us to concentrate on what we are least bad at, in a division of labour
Even if one person is better at everything than someone else, there is still benefit to both to cooperate in a division of labour

The bigger that division of labour, the better for everyone

In that respect, any barrier to freely trading with anyone else, makes everyone poorer

This was the position of the free trade liberals, most notably Frederic Bastiat in France, and Richard Cobden in England. Cobden was leader of the Manchester free trade (and anti corn law) liberals.

America is more problematic, John C Calhoun is excellent on free trade, but unfortunately his insights on the advantages of free trade, didn't carry over to his views on slavery!

Bastiat was Brilliant,
His writings really bring out the absurdity of the "protectionist " arguments (protection for whom, against whom or what? Protectionism is the protection of a specially privileged minority, to screw over the majority).

For example his "candle makers petition" has candle makers lobbying the French monarchy (there was a short lived monarchy in the mid nineteenth century)

They complain that they are suffering unfair competition for outside of France, and they trot out all of the myths about how prosperous they, the king and the kingdom would become, if that unfair competition were shut out...
The competitor was of course the sun!

There's also a proposal for a railway, that will make work for carters, and so enrich the kingdom by the work and earnings it creates
It was to do this by having gaps, where rail wagons were unloaded, and the cargo loaded onto horse carts and hauled by road, then loaded onto rail wagons again
A railway that makes more money, the more gaps there are in its length- a negative railway.

Bastiat is well worth reading, and he's out of copyright, so his work is available free (from anarcho capitalists).

Guild and mercantilist like restrictive practices are only part of the story, there's also monetary manipulation. Ron Paul is excellent on that.
I'll try to cover some of it in a little while.
 
My question was whether or not there are actual answers.

One of the reasons I disliked the study of economics was (is) that there seem to be a myriad of experts, endlessly discussing how any potential solution a problem merely creates more problems. Another reason i dislike it is that it seems like the study of economics is actually done to find more creative ways to game the system. In other words, "if I analyze this carefully, I can find more and better ways to gain advantage over others." Personally, I HATE that! I realize there are a lot of bad people (or people I perceive to be bad) who want to take advantage of others. Apparently we can't kill them all. Can't we find a way for more people to be find ok? Wouldn't a better goal for the study of economics to be finding the route to maximum benefit for the most people possible?
 
But, with no government at all, you REALLY have social Darwinism. (Maybe not even 'social', just Darwinism

Albert Jay Nock, differentiates between "government" as it is defined at the beginning of Jefferson's declaration of independence

And "the state" as the organisation of the political means

The political means being the non consensual (forced) extraction of goods or services from people without full recompense.

Knock points out that with that distinction, the East coast hunting Indians, whom Jefferson had spent a lot of time with, and described as "without government"
Did have government in the sense that it is used in the declaration.

What they did not have was "the state" in the sense of the organisation of the political means.

I prefer the term "governance" to government

And I'll contrast consensual leadership to coerced (non concensual) rulership.

Anarchy (an archos - without rulers) doesn't imply without rules

There are two different things that get called "laws"

One is the system of conventions which is built up from experience in resolving disputes
In England and America, it is generally called "common law"
Another example would be the lex mercantis, that developed at the medieval trading card, and currently forms the basis of international business law.

These systems build up, and they're all surprisingly similar, whether they were amongst North American Indians, in medieval Europe, present day Somalia or amongst the hill tribes of new Guinea.
Even empirically, it's as though they were all converging on an underlying Natural Law.

It doesn't need a central authority, it just needs people seeking to resolve disputes by using reason, and learning from that.

Then there's "positive law", which is what politicians and governments say it is. This is where we get the idiocy of "victimless crimes"

Some of the customary legal systems can be quite conservative, for example the book of judges in the Bible, as they reflect the customs of the people involved.

Interestingly though, they don't automatically become conservative; medieval Irish (brehon) law came up with a system of recognition of women's rights that would be liberal even buy British and American standards up into the 1960s and 1970s!

The effect of a coercive central authority, is actually the one that leads to a "law of the jungle" situation, as it becomes a competition to control or influence the coercive authority, so that some people can live at other people's expense.

There are some good scholarly investigations into these ideas

Recommendations that are available free would be Bruce Benson's the enterprise of customary law
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And Anderson & Hill's The not so wild wild West, an American experiment in anarcho capitalism.
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A really good introduction would be Gustav de Molinari, the production of security from 1848

Even with extreme laissez-faire liberals, there's an assumption that courts and police/military are somehow special services that can never be provided by a competitive market, they must be provided by a coercive monopoly

De molinari examines that idea, and finds that a competitive market will provide more better and cheaper service in those areas as well, compared to a coercive monopoly.

It's only about 80 pages, and it's well worth reading.

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Albert Jay Nock, differentiates between "government" as it is defined at the beginning of Jefferson's declaration of independence

And "the state" as the organisation of the political means

The political means being the non consensual (forced) extraction of goods or services from people without full recompense.

Knock points out that with that distinction, the East coast hunting Indians, whom Jefferson had spent a lot of time with, and described as "without government"
Did have government in the sense that it is used in the declaration.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,

A J Nock is good. He draws on Franz Openheimer's investigations of the historical origins of the state, which in every known example, originated in conquest expropriation and exploitation.
Albert Jay Nock - Wikipedia

Where Nock falls down IMO is his Ricardian and Henry Georgist approach to "Rent"

He's a long way behind Böhm Bawerk's work on capital theory, as were most of the English speaking economists at that time.
 
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