Suicide Is Not An Option But An Unwelcome Invitation To Hell For The Survivors

[mamachick]

What if a severely depressed person is being selfish at the moment they are seriously considering suicide? I think when a person is feeling so hopeless, it is difficult to focus on anything other than our own pain (things previously enjoyed are no longer enjoyed).

If I were a cancer survivor undergoing chemotherapy and physically ill all day long, what I did or did not do or participate in would likely be just as "selfish" of a choice. I might feel to ill to attend my kids events.
Telling a severely depressed person that they should not think that way is like telling a quadropalegic to get out of his chair and run a marathon.

"Selfish" is just a word. I think we attach a meaning and decide if that is a positive or negative thing. I know for myself, if I would chose to be "selfish" at certain times, I would be healthier and more able to contribute to others more effectively. Its the not wanting to be selfish that allows me to put other people first (at times when not warranted or appropriate) and ends in my collapse.
Anyone who has seriously considered suicide due to their own pain and not in an attempt to punish others knows that it is not a conscious choice to feel this hopeless. It is a desperate attempt at relief from current pain., like having the shades drawn without any hope of daylight.

Shell-that comment by your doc sounds plain ignorant. Some people have medical knowledge but not a real understanding of what depression really is. You have an opportunity to go back for those monthly visits and explain where you were and what it was like. This might prevent this doc from making such unhelpful statements to others.

 

[goingonhope]

I'm disagreeing with the mindset of "suicidal people are deliberately hurting others and should be censured for what they've done or consider doing".

Tessa, I agree with this. I too disagree with this mindset.

It's not even logical to me.

 

[ms spock]

I was 8 years old when I considered suicide it was a way out of an unbearable family situation. And I think I thought of it younger as well.

 

[Abstract]

If someone is so shattered that they would rather die than continue living, especially if they're somebody I care about, I don't want to call them selfish.

"suicidal people are deliberately hurting others and should be censured for what they've done or consider doing"

"meaning the above is wrong"

Well said Tessa.

I have been directly touched by suicide in a couple of ways.

I think it is a common misconception to just label the person as selfish. There is always condemnation after. In my opinion suicide can be selfish or can not to be. Regardless of what it is or the persons intentions it leaves terrible devastation in it's wake and that is important to remember too.

The two suicides in my experience couldn't have been more different. The one left a note to her family saying how it served them right and how she hoped they all suffered forever and it was all their fault. Naming her children and husband in the letter. This was a situation where she was without a doubt a damaged person but abused her family members including her husband physically. Every part of it was done in a way that would cause as much damage to those around her as was possible.

The other was someone who never told anyone of his pain except one person. Who showed great awareness and care of others and an understanding of what suicide would do to those around him and yet did it. He left devastation in his wake but he never meant to and living just became too painful and depression distorted his perception.

The two are like night and day in my opinion. I have no sympathy for the first and great sympathy for the second. Both left an aftermath that was severely damaging to others but I only have compassion for the second.

People are not thinking clearly and properly when they get to that point. It isn't a case of rationally being able to weigh things up. Depression is a monster and takes over ones brain.

The effect on others including those cleaning up after is the only thing that has stopped me many, many a time and my family already having had to deal with suicide is the reason why I won't do it. I couldn't do that to them again. Not unless I was trapped in a traumatic environment. But I will never judge someone for committing suicide when it is done from despair. It just breaks my heart and mostly to think of the pain they were in. Anyone in this much pain only deserves compassion.

I think everyone has a right to end it if the pain is bad enough but that it is a waste and that everyone can be helped.

What we all have to be aware of though is that our going is never ever going to make it easier for others. That is distortion. If that is what you are thinking then the depression has taken over. Rational thinking doesn't allow such logic.

I think this really stems from the feeling that my death specifically doesn't seem important enough to traumatize people?

What you say makes sense. You have a lifetime of trauma and so one incident does not feel like it could traumatise anyone and on top of that you don't want to live and are likely to project the relief of ending it onto others. I think a lot of the trouble is people projecting their feelings onto those around them.

The truth is that people are traumatised by one incident all the time and especially if there are predisposing factors. Not only that but the people who clean up are traumatised often by suicide. Even without trauma there is terrible devastation and grief including complicated grief. The two suicides I mentioned have devastated at least 3 lives. Don't allow yourself to think it will be a relief to others or not do any harm. If you do it do it because the pain is too much. I personally have great compassion for that.

 

[ms spock]

Suicidal ideation can also be a safety value for those who grow up in sexually abusive households - a mental out, if you will, from severe abuse.

 

[ms spock]

I know suicide can be destructive to those around them. And that is very sad. But I believe some people do it because they want the pain to stop.

If we can reach out to people or get people to learn how to reach out, that could be a good thing.[DOUBLEPOST=1387707154][/DOUBLEPOST]Teaching people ways of distracting themselves and having lists of support lines and people to ring can be a good thing.

 

[Bluerose]

Reinventing ourselves is traumatic, especially when we had grown accustom to the way things were.

I agree. It’s not so much about reinventing yourself and more about discovering who you really are, who you would have been without all the trauma. It’s about finding yourself - your true self.

 

[ms spock]

about discovering who you really are, who you would have been without all the trauma. It’s about finding yourself - your true self.

If you didn't have a chance to build a self before the trauma then how do you find out who you are?

 

[Bluerose]

Good question. Not so easy to answer but let me try. Your personality is what is built and includes the trauma. The Self is the soul of you, the mind body and spirit of you. The Personality may be fixed and in pain but realising your true Self can make you stronger and help you to rise above the pain.

I don't know if you have heard of Byron Katie. I think the jury is still out on how affective her theories are. But one thing that struck me as true was the thought of who I would have been without my story. It strikes me as quite a profound question.

Putting all the pain and suffering to one side for a moment, it is quite possible to ask yourself that question and recognise your true Self, a stronger, more powerful you, a you that can carry the trauma and still live a decent life for your own sake, for your own health and well being.

I reached a point in my life, after many years of therapy and medication and struggling to bring up three children, when I thought "Enough is enough! He's been dead ten years and he is still hurting me!" That's when my recovery really began.

Even before ever hearing of Byron Katie, I was drawn to the idea anyway as I sat by my mum's bed where she was dying of cancer. She had it tough too but as I sat there, she spoke with such a soft voice, she was sweet and kind, not at all like the 'pass the buck shrew' I grew up with. I found myself thinking this is the real you, this is who you would have been without all the pain. So I think then, without being fully aware of what was happening, I began to wonder what I would have been like without all the pain. For me, that is the true self.

One last thought. I find it quite empowering to say, "My name is (insert name) and I am in control of my own life!"

 

[Hashi]

What a title for a thread. I think only someone for whom "suicide never crossed my mind" could have written something so full of judgement and condemnation with the intention of being motivational. Just because it's damaging to others doesn't automatically mean it's selfish. It's a symptom of despair, and no more selfish than the symptoms of other mental health disorders that can cause much pain for the people around us.

I'm interested in the more considered posts here because I'm trying to find a way to go forward without hating life.

The idea of who I would be without trauma is problematic for me. It's too difficult to imagine bringing that kind of consciousness into my actual life as I live it, without some sort of dangerous slip of reality. I've had too much amnesia and denial to feel comfortable with it.

I also feel that life can only have value if I can make peace with my experiences and how they've affected me. I need to accept the shadow aspects because it's only by fully allowing the shadow that I can fully allow other things as well. I've had a few short times of feeling this - feeling how imperfect life and I and other people are, but experiencing a sort of love of things all the same. Those times have been too few and too short, but for me that's my feeling of a true self. Not a reinvented self or an untouched one, but a whole one.

I have no idea how to get there, though.

 

[Abstract]

I seemed to live most of my life obsessing over ending it. At times when it was almost happening and at other times where it was more a knee jerk reaction. The second was basically a default and the first happened fairly often and changed according to circumstances. I don't know how I never took those final steps.

I eventually realised that it was predominantly about two things. The levels of pain overwhelming coping and hope, and feeling there is no possibility of something better. Pain and being trapped. I approach it very analytically now and always try to address these two things as best I can. Try to convince myself there is a way through of some type and look at my means of coping.

Finishing things as a longer term concept and life being worthwhile is a little different. I believe we all have this right. The problem is that trauma and depression can change our perspective a lot and I suspect this thinking often comes from and with trauma states and clinical depression.

On the topic of being who we should be. I have trouble with it for a few reasons but Bluerose your last post softened me a bit. That is a touching story and I too have had moments with my father and others where I have seen past the effects of the pain. Not in the same situation and not nearly as profoundly but similar.

I don't find it useful for me to ever think "what if" or to try to undo or go back. Thinking who I should have been puts me back there. It very quickly leads to despair, judgement and misery.

I rather think of everyone in the world going forward. Regardless of our pasts we go forward and change. That is a fact of life. I rather see my essence as being in there and innate. It is there no matter what and has always been there. I see it as being about mowing towards an expression of my true essence and that includes my experiences.

My experiences are and I am and what I need to work on is moving forward in an authentic way to a place where I am able to engage with the world and myself in a healthy and satisfying way.

Lastly I looked back on what I said in my last post and I don't think one aspect of it came across as I intended. I not only have compassion and understanding for someone who ends it because the pain is too much. I also respect someone's right to do so. Not when it is the guise of making things easier for others but as free will and respect and acknowledgement of the pain they are in.

These days my ways of managing suicidal ideation and intent is much improved. It gets bad whenever I am significantly triggered and other than that is the the less urgent variety. I have started to accept the mindspace that comes with a trigger or a triggered period. The instance suicidal nature of the thoughts that follow. I have not delved down into trauma as yet so who knows how my thoughts may change but this is where I am now.

 

[ms spock]

I think it has to do with the nature of somebody's motivations for suicide. If someone is so shattered that they would rather die than continue living, especially if they're somebody I care about, I don't want to call them selfish. I don't want to blame them for leaving "a mess", for the pain that others would feel at their death. I would want to love and support them -- not so they can die, of course, but to try and help them keep on fighting. More than anything else, I would not want to be one more person kicking them while they're at a very low point..

And if people can talk about it and get support they are much less likely to do something.

I'm not saying that suicide should be encouraged in any way, shape or form, and I hope nobody reads this message as such. I'm disagreeing with the mindset of "suicidal people are deliberately hurting others and should be censured for what they've done or consider doing". It's like when people say that a rape victim not reporting their assault means that they are responsible for whoever's hurt by the attacker after them -- that's an unnecessary helping of shame on a decision that people are probably not making with others, or the intent to hurt others, on their mind..

Condemning someone for what they have done is a waste of time and it means that people won't talk and sort out what got them to that please. In fact that attitude is more likely to lead to more suicides rather than preventing them.

If it would hurt themselves, it's something that should be firmly combated, but with every effort possible made to spare them any further despair or shame in the process.

Trying to shame someone into not committing suicide is perhaps not the most effective means of suicide prevention.