Shamanic treatment healed my sleep disturbances

[RubyBlue]

You’re right that I am biased to a point. You’re right that I wouldn’t have the same automatic skepticism towards prazosin. Because I have a certain level of trust towards western medicine. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. I’m actually all for using holistic remedies when appropriate and even in combination with western medicine. But that is because I trust in the decades of research and livelihoods dedicated to determining safety of products. Nothing is 100% safe. But I would feel more comfortable using a product that’s taken a decade to develop and been put the wringer time and again to pass usability and safety tests. I’m not saying what you’re referring to is completely baseless, it’s not. But I think care should be taken when considering products that have not been relentlessly tested. Think of the over the counter herbs and diet pills you can buy that have never had to pass any regulation- many have proven dangerous or at least fatal. Especially when taken without any professional guidance from someone who has studied medicine most of their lives.

I know shamans do as well, but let’s use another analogy: a birthing mother. A doula alone is fantastic, they can do most anything and have a certain level of expertise and provided the birth goes smoothly, alls good. But what happens when the baby is breech and can’t be turned through the means the doula knows? What about if shoulder dystocia happens (where the shoulders get caught behind the pubic bone). At some point it’s a really smart idea to get an actual obstetrician who can do everything needed because they’ve gotten some serious training.

 

[Ronin]

@Entheo

You're having a lot of automatic assumptions here...

While Annalyn may say she's 'biased'?

I was raised & lived a good portion of my life on non-Western approaches.

Wanna try better argumentation while you consider people may have valid reasons for objecting your posts?

And all your talk about 'the West' sounds full of fallacies and frankly bad-politics political rhetoric.

That may not come off so in Latin American settings...

But sounds very differently to (primarily American / UK / AUS&) cultural contexts.

 

[Entheo]

I'm not sure of that 'Western doctors have no idea' sentiment.

Who do you think writes all the (peer reviewed, fully scientific) studies explaining how ethno-medicine works *to other Western doctors*?

It isn't the Amazonian shamans. Who may speak several Indigenous languages but not whichever collonial equivalent.

And who flies to help dying out Indigenous populations in this pandemy or else one? Bingo. Western medical personnel.

Romanticizing poverty & ethnic issues & medicine in underdeveloped nations just ain't cool.

* * *

Scam isn't just about selling products - but services, getting in contact with particular other provider(s) and so on.

You are coming to a community of people where several have quite severe symptoms of trauma & PTSD, daily... as well as multiple other complex health conditions.

To review anything as 'magic cure' - for a condition with *no known cure.* sounds shady at best. Quite hazarding less informed / more desperate people's lives, too.

And while Gabor Mate IS an established researcher, his books are imo way deeper source than quick vids.

So please keep in mind, working *for you* is nowhere near the same as *working for PTSD*. Even less 'a cure'.

Misrepresenting facts just doesn't assist.

This isn't a sentiment, this is a self evident reality. What percentage of doctors do you believe have lived with indigenous cultures or worked with shamans to the extent that they have gained a genuine understanding of their system of medicine. Less than 5%. Good ethnobotanical studies are carried out by ethnobotanists, not doctors and if you had the opportunity to talk to a good ethnobotanist and asked them how much of the Amazonian shamanic model of healing they truly understand, they will tell you not a lot. Out of all the "ethnobotanical" studies, what percentage to you think were written by people who truly understand this? Writing down observations that "this indigenous culture believes that spirits of the plants can help heal certain conditions" does not equate to an actual understanding of what they're attempting to document. I can say that "physicists believe that atomic energy can propel a rocket", does this mean I have an understanding of physics? Does this qualify me to give advice on how to build rockets? Or would you get better advice from a rocket scientist?

Even nutrition and diet is an area that a lot of Western doctors are ignorant about. If you want to heal through improving your diet, would you be better off seeing your GP or seeing a nutritionist? You might be lucky to know a GP that has a deep understanding of nutrition, in this case they are exactly who you should talk to, but your GP might also be completely uninformed about nutrition. If you go to a GP like this and ask for advice on say curing diabetes through changing your diet, do you think they are qualified to give you good advice? The advice they'll probably give you is not to waste your time with nutrition because diabetes is an incurable disease that can only be controlled with drugs. Yes, there are a lot of GPs who think like this. Luckily times are changing and doctors are more and more informed about nutrition. And there are plenty of doctors who are open minded. But what I'm trying to point out is that shamanic medicine is a big unknown for most doctors. Even the physical side of the plants themselves, a small percentage of Western doctors will know anything about these plants. For them, the only responsible thing to do is to advise you not to go this route because it's something they don't understand and for them the unknown is dangerous. But the thing is, there are genuine methods of healing in this world that is unknown to your GP. I'm hoping I explained this in a clear way, when you've experienced both sides of the equation this becomes clear and obvious but if you only got one side of the puzzle I know well how tricky it can be to see this.

 

[Friday]

MODERATOR NOTE
From the Community Constitution

Members are allowed and encouraged to recommend anything that has helped them on their journey to recovery. However, no member is allowed to promote themselves or their web content in any way, nor is it acceptable to post advertisements for goods, products, or services.

Sometimes those things are going to be outside the box, religious to the Nth degree, using mood & mind altering subtances, or just a plain ole bad idea.

Members are allowed to share that plunging themselves into cold water/ talking whilst clicking buzzers in their hands; or giving themselves to Jesus/ going on Hajj/ converting to Buddhism; tripping on Ayuesca, psilocybin, LSD; or painting themselves blue, have helped them.

Other members are -equally- allowed to question/challenge those practices.

Where we run into problems is when either

- The person sharing what has helped them crosses into proselytizing, insisting or insinuating others need to do as they are (we haven’t reached that, yet); self promotion; or advertising / attempting to sell snake oil of any variety, even -or perhaps especially- to people who have dry snakes in need of oil ;)

- The people questioning/ challenging the OP devolve into a thread jack about validity, spam, and or other violations of the terms of service. >>> which we appear to have not only reached but have devoted an entire page to, already <<< PLEASE use Contact Us if you have any question as to spam, self promotion, or other possible rule-violations, or click ‘report post’, to let staff deal with it rather than arguing it out with no possible resolution. We do read everything on the site, but it can take a while for the all-volunteer staff to get to every post/thread, so using Contact Us or ‘report’ can direct our attention somewhere soonest :)

So far, the OP is doing no more than sharing what has helped them on their own journey, and staff is keeping an eye on, so let’s get back to the subject at hand.

As always, if you would like to reply to this post... PLEASE use Contact Us, rather than reply in thread.

And with that? We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread! :D

 

[Ronin]

@Entheo...

What about this.

Shamans are qualified medical personnel for their own populations and their sets of issues.

Other doctors are qualified medical personnel for different populations.

Methods of healing in one context...
May not be translatable to, or best suited, to other contexts.

And as it is? Telling 1st world people to basically hop on a plane and get treatment in the jungle - not only endangers the 1st worlders, if not practically ready & able for such a trek, not even starting on finances -

But most of all, poses significant *health & death.* risks to the Indigenous populations.

Who are NOT ready for all those 1st world germs people bring about.

 

[Entheo]

You’re right that I am biased to a point. You’re right that I wouldn’t have the same automatic skepticism towards prazosin. Because I have a certain level of trust towards western medicine. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. I’m actually all for using holistic remedies when appropriate and even in combination with western medicine. But that is because I trust in the decades of research and livelihoods dedicated to determining safety of products. Nothing is 100% safe. But I would feel more comfortable using a product that’s taken a decade to develop and been put the wringer time and again to pass usability and safety tests. I’m not saying what you’re referring to is completely baseless, it’s not. But I think care should be taken when considering products that have not been relentlessly tested. Think of the over the counter herbs and diet pills you can buy that have never had to pass any regulation- many have proven dangerous or at least fatal. Especially when taken without any professional guidance from someone who has studied medicine most of their lives.

I know shamans do as well, but let’s use another analogy: a birthing mother. A doula alone is fantastic, they can do most anything and have a certain level of expertise and provided the birth goes smoothly, alls good. But what happens when the baby is breech and can’t be turned through the means the doula knows? What about if shoulder dystocia happens (where the shoulders get caught behind the pubic bone). At some point it’s a really smart idea to get an actual obstetrician who can do everything needed because they’ve gotten some serious training.

I got trust in western medicine too, I don't reject it just because it's limited. There are many areas that western medicine works way better that other types of medicine. Antibiotics for example. I experienced this thing where all my mosquito bites started getting infected. The shaman was making plant preparations and putting them on the infections but it wasnt working, the infections were outta control. This went on for two weeks. Then I tried some fusidic acid cream and it worked, in 3 days all the infections cleared. Here they got both forms of medicine and there are some things you are way better off going to a regular doctor for. And there are some things you are way better off going to a shaman for. Some people here are against western medicine and only use ancestral medicine approaches. Some people are against the shamanic approach and only use western medicine. And then there are some people who see the value in both worlds and realise that they can be integrated rather than rejecting one or the other because neither is perfect.

I studied chemistry and pharmacology in university because I see the value in it. I eventually discovered the limitations too. I used to reject all kinds of things like homeopathy because I thought it was nonsense but I'm a lot wiser now and understand more about the spiritual nature of life.

I see what you're saying, they're real good analogies your using which get the point across. Some indigenous people here are pretty old fashioned and insist on giving birth at home. But there are situations where they realise they have to go to a hospital or someone is going to die. I have seen this exact situation here, luckily she went to the hospital. Like I said, some things your better off seeing a doctor for because they are better trained and qualified to deal with that. And some things, a shaman is better trained and qualified to deal with. This particular issue I was struggling with, the shamanic approach was the wiser decision for me. I had xanax which I know would have gave me temporary relief but I would have had to take it every night and I know where the road leads, I been down that road before and it took me to a dark place, I don't ever want to go back there. I considered getting prazosin but I have been down the same dark road and hit the same dead end with every class of medication I hoped I could rely on.

Being in the jungle there are no EMDR specialists or good psychotherapists. There are shamans who use their ancestral system of medicine and while I didn't really believe it was gonna work, I took a leap of faith and what do you know, it worked. I don't believe it permanently cured me of anything, but it has shifted something in such a way that the symptoms have gone down to 5% of what they were and at the same time, all kinds of other symptoms I wasn't trying to heal have changed too. Depression has lifted a lot and certain things which I didn't believe possible to remedy like this have lifted.

It's opened a door for me, I truly have faith in the plants and feel deeply blessed that this path has opened up.

 

[Entheo]

@Entheo...

What about this.

Shamans are qualified medical personnel for their own populations and their sets of issues.

Other doctors are qualified medical personnel for different populations.

Methods of healing in one context...
May not be translatable to, or best suited, to other contexts.

And as it is? Telling 1st world people to basically hop on a plane and get treatment in the jungle - not only endangers the 1st worlders, if not practically ready & able for such a trek, not even starting on finances -

But most of all, poses significant *health & death.* risks to the Indigenous populations.

Who are NOT ready for all those 1st world germs people bring about.

It's a little bit like this, when the westerners colonized the Americas, the two cultures coming together was like two really different worlds colliding. Today, these cultures have mixed to such a point that indigenous people use western medicine and westerners use what was once the indigenous peoples style of medicine. Nowadays Meztisos (they're mixed race people, ordinary South Americans) have their own style of shamanic healing and they incorporate Christianity into it. Traditionally shamans would drink Ayahuasca for the patients and the patient wouldn't drink Ayahuasca, they would just sit in the ceremony with the shaman and let the shaman heal them energetically. This is incompatible with most westerners mindsets, they believe they have to drink Ayahuasca themselves in order to heal. I struggle with this one myself, I been talked into
sitting in ceremonies many times where I didn't drink Ayahuasca, I thought it was nonsense at first but I did observe thatI would feel real completely different when I left the ceremonies almost like I had drank it.

You see how belief system plays a huge role in healing, the placebo effect requires belief to work. You could see it like western medicine and Amazonian medicine are two different, incompatible world's and westerners can only inhabit the western medicine world. It's not really like that though. TCM would be another world, you don't need to believe in Chi to experience the healing effects of a treatment prescribed by a TCM doctor. And really it is a science, just viewed through a different lense. Westerners might focus on the compounds in the plants while the Chinese doctor might explain it through the elements and energies. Amazonian medicine is different but you only need to expandyour views a little to start to get it. Shamans are the doctors in Amazonian medicine and they have a deep understanding which can't be explained through the western paradigm.

This thread has gone on a bit of a mad tangent, but I suppose it's good to lay these things out. It's turned into a debate though, I'm not entirely sure what were debating to be honest. I'm happy to be able to share this either way, there is a lot of understanding being put into words in the process.

 

[joeylittle]

there is a lot of understanding being put into words in the process.

Sometimes, this is exactly what a debate/dialogue can accomplish. It's all good.

 

[Entheo]

Ronin I also want to say something about another part of your post, it's off topic but it needs to be said.

I'm not telling anyone to get on a plane to the jungle. Of course there are dangers and difficulties in doing this. For me it has been the best trek I have ever made.

Whether it endangers the indigenous people depends entirely on how it's done. I know beyond all doubt that me moving to this indigenous community, I'm helping them as much as they are helping me. I feel it in my heart. My intentions are good and I have the wisdom to be of service. This is a symbiotic relationship. The isolated indigenous communities are pretty inaccessible, the community I found myself in is connected by roads and is connected to the modern world to such an extent that they're in danger of losing their culture and their ancestral knowledge. Westerners who come in need of healing and a strong desire in their heart to help are a blessing to these communities which may be why were welcomed with open arms. We help to preserve their culture by making it obvious to both the indigenous people and the meztisos how valuable their culture is to us. We give them incentive to preserve their culture and ancestral knowledge. Being forced to adapt to a society which makes it really hard for them to survive let alone prosper, a society which does not value their culture is what endangers their culture. Communities which had been impoverished and oppressed since colonial times now have massive support from the people from all over the world. People come from all over the world to these communities in need of healing and provide a source of income vastly greater than what they need to survive, enabling them to build healing centers, build wells, infrastructure, all manners of support for the community. The minimum wage for indigenous people is lower than the ordinary minimum wage of the country. In Peru it is about $5 per day and it's normal to work 10 hour days. What makes this a truly symbiotic relationship is the indigenous people have something we need, we have something we need and when they provide us with what we need, it empowers us to give more and the more we give, the more empowered they are to give.

There's challenges, it's not easy but these are the dynamics. Just the ability to speak and write in English means you can setup a gofundme page or a website for them for example, or write an article bringing awareness of their needs to the rest of the world. I won't share the specific details about where I'm at and what's happening here on an open thread but I can in a PM if you want to know.

When approached with awareness, this is a truly symbiotic relationship between indigenous people and westerners who need healing. There is a dark side, where westerners can be exploited by indigenous people and vice versa but there is also the light side where the relationship is truly symbiotic and this is where I have found myself. I have been here 1.5 years which is long enough to see what is what. I see the impact that the westerners coming here are having on the community and the impact this is having on the lives of the westerners and if this wasn't something I feel strongly resonating with my heart, I wouldn't be here.

The knowledge and abilities the indigenous people have carried for generations is something so immensely valuable to the rest of the world but the majority of the world isn't even aware of what these communities have. Luckily in Peru many tribes were uncontacted until recent times so they weren't exposed to the Spanish Inquisition and the extreme attempts to suppress their culture that happened in the past. And luckily something is happening that is making them realise the value of their knowledge and skills that is giving them incentive to preserve it and continue to develop it.

I wouldn't have had the ability to even write all this if I hadn't been helped to heal.

 

[Ronin]

@Entheo - Yeah, and I'm not saying that people shouldn't seek healing for themselves or their loved ones - or that you've done any wrongs with yours ;) - but precisely the point it's a rather complicated issue that requires a loot of forethought and consideration of all aspects before and if it should be undertaken.

 

[Entheo]

I left the indigenous community for about a month and was staying in the city, in the same room where I was getting haunted by the nightmares. Not only did the nightmares and troubles not come back, I been steadily getting better and better. Good feelings deepening within me. I'm back at the community now and I feel amazing. I was eating way less healthy and drinking way too much coffee addictively when I was away so things weren't perfect, my energy levels were low but was still feeling amazing, I don't know how to explain it. Things are really good, I'm deeply grateful for so much and got so much to be grateful about atm

 

[Entheo]

The nightmares came back but only really briefly. It's interesting cuz they started again when I started drinking a plant by myself unguided, I had a real unsettling dream that night and my energy crashed after that. I was having crazy experiences, then I had a really strong sleep paralysis experience one night, and the nightmares stopped again after that. There was one night were I found myself on the edge of panic, I forgot where I was and who I was with. When I remembered then everything calmed down.