Suicide Is Not An Option But An Unwelcome Invitation To Hell For The Survivors

[Tinyflame]

Dear @Xbreed , I am sorry also for what you went through. For many of us it's not imaginable at all. I think the difference with people and suicide, or one common area that blurs the issue, is that there ARE different types and motivations. When the motivation is pride, or trying to cause another harm, yes it certainly appears to have selishness involved. Very different when one spends every waking moment (NOT out of choice or within their control) feeling and thinking others would have less of a burden if they weren't there, though that could still *appear* selfish, and perhaps is to the extent that others (especially themself) would wish they could see any other way.

Anger is good, and justified. I think as @Lucycat and @Pencil said, it's as despisable a thing as cancer and heart disease, or smoking that takes a life early or a freak accident.

At some point, if you can or wish to, @Muzikluvr linked a very good video from a suicide survivor in a thread called "Speaking out, Becoming a suicide activist" (I believe). I don't think it will rub salt in the terrible wounds.

And yes, I am a suicide survivor (my own attempts), and I understand if you hate me for it as well. And I've lost to suicide, I will never blame them though, just speaking of myself. But it is hard to know that you'll be hated for desperately just trying to make the pain stop. I wish it had been different for them, as I wish for anyone that suffers. All of these illnesses cause a wide scar of pain around and behind them.

 

[Pietro]

I have nothing for those that think about/attempt/succeed in suicide, It is the single most selfish thing one can do to those who love and care for them. No matter how dark the sky, how rainy the day, how bleak the out look on life, Somewhere the Sun is shining, one just needs to open thier eyes!!!!

I used to think very much like you do. Which means I have perspective from both sides. Others have already made some excellent comments regarding this, so I'll go with an example.

Consider a person dying some terrible disease which has put them in enormous pain. They've tried every remedy they and their doctors knew, to no avail. Thus, the remainder of this person's life will be nothing but continuous, extreme pain. If this person chose to be euthanized, would you fault the person for this? Would you call them selfish for wanting to end their profound suffering? Even if you don't believe in euthanasia, would you could this person "selfish" for wanting to die in order to end their suffering?

Now consider a person who has the same level of suffering emotionally. Perhaps you don't believe that one can have that level of emotional distress, even after hearing about others who've been there. If so, then as others have suggested, you've never really experienced what it's like to be suicidal. This has nothing to do with what terrible, heart-breaking things may have occurred in your life. Some people go through such things and, for a very large variety of reasons, do not fall to such a level of emotional distress. But many people do. There's no way to predict what will send you there, or why you got there.

But once you're there, you know. Because every thought and emotion you have speaks with reason and authority about how the world would be so much better off without you, how everyone would be happier to be unburdened by you, and, worse, that someone as horrible, loathsome, and unlovable as you shouldn't even be allowed to exist, anyway -- as one example. Of course, we fight these thoughts and feelings. Counter them, try to be objective, etc. But if the pain is severe enough, it will completely override reason; they become your reality.

Is it "selfish" to want to kill oneself to end pain? Yes, absolutely. Will it hurt and anger one's loved ones? Yes, again. When the actor Philip Seymour Hoffman died a few weeks ago, I was furious at him (yes, it wasn't technically a suicide, but, considering the amount of crap he had in his blood, he knew that he wouldn't be long for the world). He left three young kids behind. His behavior was incredibly irresponsible. But he wasn't a monster. He wasn't even a terrible guy, by all accounts. He was a damaged guy, so damaged that his demons won. They convinced him that he could manage his pain in a way that would help him deal with life. And they helped kill him.
Maybe not so selfish as desperate.

You are entitled to your own experience and point of view with regard to it. However, you are not entitled to dictate to me, or anyone else, what perspective we should hold. There is an enormous body of scientific research literature that supports the concept of overpowering compulsion based upon emotional distress. It's not an illusion or delusion or a weakness -- it's simply a mental state, like any other, brought-on in the same way that all mental states are, as a combination of our genetics and experiences.

I think it is absolutely wonderful that you've never felt so horrible that dying seemed like the only logical and unselfish thing to do. Consider yourself lucky. :)

Isnt that why we are all here, because of our Past, and should we not be trying to get over it and move on?

Of course. But it doesn't resolve in a nice, linear way. It takes you through many ups and downs. And, depending upon the severity of the underlying trauma, things can get exponentially worse before they get better. Keep in mind, trauma causes the mind to do things to protect itself from further harm. Because of this, the mind will fight every and any attempt to dismantle these things -- thus, "get over it and move on" isn't a simple or quick process.

I don't know if you're been doing trauma therapy for a while or not, but, if you haven't, then you might be very unpleasantly surprised at what rises-up from the depths of your subconscious in the process. Your perspective may change drastically.

 

[DharmaGirl]

and should we not be trying to get over it and move on?

What makes you think we are not? I have been working hard at therapy, twice a week for 2 1/2 years, and because my multiple, horrific traumas happened at such an early developmental age, I have much different issues than someone who had a single trauma, or trauma at a later age. Having sympathy and compassion is what therapy is teaching us. It is getting us away from the black and white thinking that does us such a disservice. I think if we could all just get over it we would.

 

[Xbreed]

What makes you think I have only the one trauma in my life, and that they didn't start at an early age and go on into adult hood!

 

[Lady of Longbourn]

@Xbreed This is not a competition about who has the worst or the most trauma. Comparing is not healthy IMHO.

 

[The Albatross]

Considering how several were pressing Xbreed, I can understand the exasperation expressed.

 

[Xbreed]

Ty Alb, trust me I do not want to compare or compete for who has the most trauma, scars, whose is bigger/deeper, I have carried this one for 30 years, I have had a T for 5, and up until I joined this site I have never spoken about it in the way I did to ANYONE, now I speak my mind on a site I thought was supposed to be for speaking your mind, and because I don't think the way others do, Im in the wrong? and this is why I kept so much inside, why I built the walls I did, I never thought PTSD for what ever reason one has it, would make one feel more Alone then around those who have the same,,, yet Different reasons for having it!

 

[Lady of Longbourn]

I looked over the thread @Xbreed IMHO you do seem very agitated by it. Have you thought about taking a step back from the thread for awhile to calm down?

Writing about your trauma is great and I really encourage that; Do you have a diary? That is probably a good step towards healing for you right now.

 

[NukaGirl]

To call someone selfish for wanting to die is rather ignorant. It's their life, is it not? Surely if they are in that much pain they should be allowed to do as they see fit.

Also, threatening them with Hell is not the best way to get them to not feel suicidal. You'll just make them feel worse about themselves.

 

[The Albatross]

Not really. When you pause to consider interrelationships - somebody else is going to have trauma. Do you really want your swan song to be the "gift" that keeps on giving? I know for damn sure I don't.

Maybe you can shoulder that "legacy" but I know I can't or won't.

 

[ill]

Honestly, who lives a life that is free from selfishness? People can inflict trauma via their deaths, accidentally or intentionally, and they can inflict trauma via their lives, accidentally or intentionally.

I'm not sure what people are hoping to achieve here. Asking people not to kill themselves so that you won't suffer is selfish. Wanting to commit suicide to end your own pain is selfish. So what? So they're both selfish. And?

I have been suicidal and I have lost someone to suicide. Neither is fun. But I'm not sure what good is accomplished by berating either party, though, frankly, I think more harm is done by berating and reprimanding the suicidal person for being selfish (especially when your desires to keep them present are selfish too).

Selfishly, perhaps, I wish that when we talked about suicide we could refrain from belittling or berating people for choosing a life (or death) that makes sense to them. Everyone gets to live their own life. Really. They get to make decisions for themselves that we may not agree with, even if we love them, even if it hurts us (you know, provided they're not actively abusing us, etc). But I wish that instead of talk of suicide so regularly descending into accusations of selfishness flung back and forth (accomplishing what exactly?) that we would talk about how to reduce suicide - how do we make it easier for people to live in the world? How do we increase coping mechanisms and resources? How do we give people the very best chances to live a life for them? And perhaps it's just in my own experience, but often I have found that people who are suicidal are a little too preoccupied with concern for others. They're not actually selfish enough. And even suicide can be motivated by (sometimes/often irrational) concern for others. Sometimes people feel they're a burden. Telling them they're selfish for that isn't going to help. And if your intention is not to help, then what is your intention?

The person I lost to suicide left a legacy that is far greater than the pain of her suicide. That pain is enormous, certainly, but she was more than just my loss or her death. And part of that legacy, for me, has been to be more actively selfish in my life - to care for and respect my/self without guilt or shame for putting myself first. I'm doing my very best to keep myself alive but I also know that one day I may choose suicide. If I do commit suicide, I know that there will be people I hurt. I don't want to hurt them. I do my best to keep myself tethered to this world, and I do that for me and for the people who love me, but if one day it gets to be too much, I may commit suicide. I will do it for me and I don't think that's wrong. I think it's my choice. And I get to make those choices and decisions for my life because it is my life. I get to be selfish about my life and my death and my body and my rights, and the notion that I should feel guilty or ashamed or morally inferior because I'm choosing to live my life (or die my death) for me just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Tinyflame]

Thank you very much @ill . I'm sure that was very difficult to write. :hug: