News Why It's So Hard To Talk To White People About Racism

[Ronin]

@Bill Dickerson, I think one of the problems here is who exactly you mean by 'leaders'. Because I really wouldn't know who would you mean as 'leaders'. Founders? People most active on social sites? People attending & leading protests? People who make podcasts you mention? People who inspired civil rights movement in the first place & still serve as an inspiration figures? I don't see this movement as something united, in the sense you could pick a few someones & pin everybody's opinions and acts as agreeing with them.

And honestly, the same about killing could be said about cops & KKK members cops. Or that guy who shot up Charleston church recently (if shooting up a church doesn't count as terrorism in your book, I don't know what does. Last I noticed churches & hospitals & humanitarian centres were off limits targets.)

People still have their own thoughts, and choice, on what to do or not. I'm in agreement that perpetrators of crimes on both sides should be punished. But speech itself isn't necessarily a crime.

Edited to add: I haven't said I assume 'everyone thinks the same' about race, nor do I believe that. What I spoke of are social trends. Two different things.

@Whispering_Truth, attacked & persecuted? I'm really not sure about that. Told to shove it, perhaps. Told it's not wanted in specific spaces? Perhaps. That's nowhere near persecution.

 

[Bill Dickerson]

I think one of the problems here is who exactly you mean by 'leaders'. Because I really wouldn't know who would you mean as 'leaders'. Founders? People most active on social sites? People attending & leading protests? People who make podcasts you mention?

From what I understood from the discussion the podcast was from the founders and recognized leaders of the group. The group doesn't really have a clear message just "cops bad".

People who inspired civil rights movement in the first place & still serve as an inspiration figures?

Unfortunately there aren't many of those people left. Of the ones that are many are race pimps. I don't think there really is another MLK out there today.

shooting up a church doesn't count as terrorism in your book, I don't know what does. Last I noticed churches & hospitals & humanitarian centres were off limits targets

I think it was more of a hate crime than terrorism. It seemed to me to be more hate (and crazy) than a political statement. Unfortunately hospitals and churches are usually gun free zones they will become attractive to the warped people in this world. I'm not sure what a humanitarian center is but if it's gun free it will become an attractive target as well.

social trends

What social trends do you mean?

 

[Ronin]

@Bill Dickerson, see but you're going with 'the group', singular. Local groups organizing in various cities, and sympathizers & eventual material support people globally, isn't a singular group. And I haven't heard founders like Alicia Garza speak of any of those 'kill the cops' wishes.

Context matters. What gets pointed out is 'cops bad', but that isn't what's being meant - abusive cops bad. That there is a level of paranoia, because of lived experience, in Black & Latino communities, is true. But that paranoia is understandable; if your abusers have been whole your life X type of person, it's rather easy to generalize. I'd have thought that is one thing that translates, with us as survivors.

There's states where I'd just say military-bad. Does it mean I think that as a whole? About a group I'm a part of & about a group that, as a group, has been my life & some of the best moments in that life? No. It speaks of specific contexts, of those places, with XY modus operandi, for a variety of reasons. How things are discussed in those communities is rather similar; it's not saying All cops are shit. If it's generalized as 'all cops'? It is said in the context of 'profession that has, by the state, power over me, they often misused in my life'.

And you said it yourself, 'not the same with another MLK'. Or Malcolm X. The same centralization of a movement just isn't comparable.

Terrorism IS hate crime. They're not a either-or. I bet the same wouldn't be said ('It's just a hate crime') if the shooter was of color. Or not Christian.

Re: social trends, what was rather illustrated on this thread; going with people of color must mean to instill riots, they're aiming to destroy whatever is there of civil of order, there's meaning things against me peersonally, just in a thread where we exchange opinions. Implicit biases ruling thinking, even where pointed out that's not really the intention & is not what's being said. I'm too darned used to similar being applied by acts of people. Being accused of doing things I'm not doing just because of who I am. Being detained &, because of those things. All based in the same cognitive distortion, and lemme tell you, it's rather tiring to have no defense except for the one I make... and then being labeled as the trouble, over and over.

 

[Bill Dickerson]

It's true many people claim this and that affiliation.

Alicia Garza

Has she spoken out against it? Silence can be detrimental also.

abusive cops bad

Problem is they don't discriminate and since they don't their argument is hollow. Like Ferguson the Officer was crucified before the facts came out. After awhile screaming wolf just makes people angry.

Malcolm X

His early stuff was just off the wall hateful but before he was killed he had taken a much less radical view. It's why he was killed that and his break with the NOI. That whole group is just spooky. MLK preached non violence til he was killed.

Terrorism IS hate crime.

I wouldn't put them in the same category. They can be both but not always. The guy in Charleston had hate in his heart but he was delusional that he could effect a race war. Terrorism is designed to be so horrible as to cause some type of political or religious change. Terrorist have been known to blow up their own people in order to incite.

Being detained

Sometimes being stopped or detained has nothing to do with being black. It's important to distinguish the difference. If you look for racism everywhere and that is your mindset you will find it regardless of the circumstances.

 

[Ronin]

Speaking against - one would think that's common sense, rather. If everyone had to speak against every looney out there, they'd have no time to be focusing on social change, or their private lives to begin with. Also: silence isn't by default condoning.

'They don't discriminate' - and do the cops? Do multiple white shooters? Do, as a matter of fact, many people set on killing one another? I wouldn't broad brush an entire group of people this way. Not rioters, not rebels, not activists, not what have you.

Good MLK Jr. and Bad Malcolm X is not a rhetoric I'm willing to go into. Go into the work of both, and the social context for their speeches, and governmental reaction to those speeches of both. It's more complex than this simplified black & white thinking about both of them.

'But he was delusional' ... that's always what's said about a group of shooters. They're always 'mentally ill'.
As to what's political & religious change and where other factors jump in is really often a matter of perspective. So is the terminology.

And thank you, I don't feel like being schooled on my own life. I'm rather aware of where factors are related to different aspect of my life & / or work if the case; people aren't incapable to use their own heads about their own abuse.

There's no need to 'look for' racism everywhere. It IS everywhere. That it may not be the most contributing factor in one's part of history, does not mean it's less effecting people, or less present. Realities are layered, and not easily simplified into single categories.

 

[LuckyDuck]

I'm getting off topic but I'm interested in what others think.

Depending where, yes on both. And no riot has to actually occur.

https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/calcrim/2600/2682.html

 

[Bill Dickerson]

Speaking against - one would think that's common sense, rather. If everyone had to speak against every looney out there, they'd have no time to be focusing on social change, or their private lives to begin with. Also: silence isn't by default condoning.

Wikipedia :

Alicia Garza (b. March 4, 1981) is a community organizer and one of the co-founders of the Black Lives Matter International movement

Isn't that her forte part of her job to speak out. It seems to me anyone that is a founder of such a group would want to clarify their position. Yes silence can be condoning actions.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

There's no need to 'look for' racism everywhere. It IS everywhere.

You mean to tell me every time you were stopped by the police they were just harassing you because you were black?

 

[Bill Dickerson]

Sorry the poem is by Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

 

[Bill Dickerson]

"Local groups organizing in various cities, and sympathizers & eventual material support people globally, isn't a singular group. And I haven't heard founders like Alicia Garza speak of any of those 'kill the cops' wishes."


Check youtube and search "Megyn Kelly Explodes: #BlackLivesMatter’s Is Fine?"

She has an interesting take on the issue.

 

[Ronin]

@Bill Dickerson, re: silence, that still does not make a person responsible for actions of another, though. Is my main point.

And re: me & stopping, I haven't said that in the slightest. I've stated there are patterns here and there that play a role, compared to how other people are treated and for which reasons. My line about every-presence of racism addressed systemic & social & psychological presence, it wasn't related to my situation or those pieces of life data.

Edited to add: I appreciate discussing with you, and clarifying positions; it helps me think, so thank you for that.

 

[Bill Dickerson]

I did some follow up on Alicia Garza. It seems she said this "When I use Assata’s powerful demand in my organizing work, I always begin by sharing where it comes from, sharing about Assata’s significance to the Black Liberation Movement, what it’s political purpose and message is, and why it’s important in our context."

Assata Shakur is a domestic Terrorist and a convicted cop killer. From what I read she left the Black Panther Party because they weren't violent enough.

You mean to tell me every time you were stopped by the police they were just harassing you because you were black?

Can you answer the question?

 

[Ronin]

'For what I read', see, I've read quite opposing views. Something about entirely construed histories about that murder for political purposes of framing of a too loud & clear headed woman who continues to be influencial and uncomfortable for a ruling régime. I think there's two sides of many stories, minimum.

And I HAVE answered the question, don't act as if I didn't. I may spell it out, though: I didn't say every time something happened because of my race. But more frequently, in specific ways? Yeah. Please do not put words into my mouth, or entirely ignore what I'm saying, thank you.