Dis-integration

[shimmerz]

You know, I just don't post or read on this board. I research too. ;-)

I have another thread out there about Annihilation Anxiety. It didn't quite work for me, but came from a posting in the diary of a dear online friend here. It was the feeling, that seems to be quite indescribable, of a complete undoing. It is beyond terrifying.

I am in a stage of my recovery right now where I have broken down most of my 'sense of self'. My old self. The constructs that I created because I was a brutally abused infant/toddler. And what I have realized, that rather than having a 'party at my place' because I have dealt with most of my trauma issues, I am left with a feeling of nothingness. I find that my SELF is kind of empty. And I am trying to figure out how to fill it up again.

As I have gotten closer and closer in processing my trauma, blowing out dissociative disorder stuff, dealt with triggers and so on, I am finding that I sink into these states of absolute and complete horror. And I have no idea what the horror is. It just feels like a complete undoing and that I am am losing myself completely. Not dying. Losing myself.

Of course. Because I have been working, through my therapy TO lose myself. My constructed self. That was the IDEA. But honestly, if I think about that rationally, it is beyond terrifying to see myself as nothing. There is nothing left of the last 55 years of me. Nothing. Annihilated. But also dis-integrated. Because I haven't gotten quite to the 'here I am all integrated again' part. I am at my 'empty SELF stage'.

So then, is it possible that in order to get these fragmented parts be cohesive again, that we have to get to ground zero (which is an empty sense of self) and rebuild from there? And does it not make sense then that that is an extremely frightening thing because there is no sense of self to hold onto while I rebuild?

Kohut writes about disintegration. I am wondering if any of you may happen to have any thoughts on this?

ETA: Kohut also adds that brutal primal triggers can send us into this disintegration anxiety..... they don't just tie into integration of a new SELF issues. But that they are a start towards working towards integration.

 

[rosey]

@shimmerz i have nothing constructive to write but just to say I am on the exact same page as you and could not put it into words any better so will be follow this thread with great interest.

 

[hodge]

I've been there, Shimmerz. Actually, I'm still kinda there, or maybe back there in full force after my husband's heart attack. The only thing that sustains me and keeps my sense of self is my faith and my precious memories of God's interventions in my life. That's about all I am right now. But I am grateful for that.

Do you have a link for more info on Kohut?

 

[lostforgottensoul]

So then, is it possible that in order to get these fragmented parts be cohesive again, that we have to get to ground zero (which is an empty sense of self) and rebuild from there? And does it not make sense then that that is an extremely frightening thing because there is no sense of self to hold onto while I rebuild?

I dont see that being possible in my opinion, though not researched on it.

I do know the feeling of being engulfed in complete terror of going insane and feel that way a lot and saw the other thread but didnt think it fit, though I tend to have issues finding words for it.

My therapist seems to be replacing one by one. Not stripping me down to a blank slate or no sense of self but rather, replace this bad with this good and we work on that until fully intergrated or accepted by me then he does another piece.

So it seems he is replacing the bad sense of self with a good sense of self one tiny piece at a time.

Does that make sense? Not sure if Im adding anything here either.

ETA: I guess I did reply to the other thread lol.

 

[shimmerz]

My therapist seems to be replacing one by one. Not stripping me down to a blank slate or no sense of self but rather, replace this bad with this good and we work on that until fully intergrated or accepted by me then he does another piece.

Ah, yes. But I haven't had a therapist for about 6 years now. I have done this all by myself. So I think I am where I am because I haven't had the ability to draw on a resource that has guided me through the 'replace this with that' model. Just another reason to encourage others to get a therapist if they possibly can.

@hodge, I go onto this by looking at a bunch of Kohuts references on youtube, looking into his SELF theories, and I believe I got to this one by looking at his 'nuclear self' information. Here is a link.... the dis-integrated self stuff is lost in a bunch of other theories.... so it is convoluted reading. If you google disintigration and Kohut you will notice some references in books that describe his thoughts on this. Sorry, probably not tremendously helpful to you.

Here is a link to one of those 'full of stuff convoluted' articles.

What Does Heinz Kohut Mean by the "Self", by Rudolf Süsske

 

[Justmehere]

I have been through something similar that I have a hard time describing. It's a sense of not even existing - but so much more pervasive than depersonalization. It's not just a shattering of self, but like a whiteboard being wiped off. A total loss of self. I have gone through this a couple of times, on purpose. (Many people just do it once, this is just what my process looks like.)

For me, the other side to it is not so much a rebuilding of a new self from ground zero... It's really hard to explain what happens for me.

My experience is that I have my sense of self obliterated and then as I somehow hold on (even when "I" doesn't even seem to be a thing) what emerges in the other side is a different experience of myself, of all the parts that were there. Not a rebuilding. A finding of self.

Instead of writing new things on the whiteboard - I.e. Creating a new self - it's more like... Well, as if my old experience of myself was a chopped up black and white silent movie, where the screen jumped all the time, and that seemed awful but normal, gets smoothed out and filled out like a 3-D color imax.

And then I have plunged back into the deintegration, on purpose, again, and come through to the other side, and the experience is even smoother and more lasting.

This is a very poor description...

It is scarier than death itself to go through it.

 

[shimmerz]

I have gone through this a couple of times, on purpose. (Many people just do it once, this is just what my process looks like.)

I have read about this type of thing. I was terrified to do it. It described it as an exercise in imagery where you imagined yourself completely shattered (really bad description) and then pulling yourself back together. The idea of that freaked the crap out of me.

Instead of writing new things on the whiteboard - I.e. Creating a new self - it's more like... Well, as if my old experience of myself was a chopped up black and white silent movie, where the screen jumped all the time, and that seemed awful but normal, gets smoothed out and filled out like a 3-D color imax.

This is where I am going wrong. I am trying, at this point, to force a 'new self'. It doesn't feel right to me at all. I would be very interested in what process you are using Just, do you have any further information?

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Ah, yes. But I haven't had a therapist for about 6 years now. I have done this all by myself. So I think I am where I am because I haven't had the ability to draw on a resource that has guided me through the 'replace this with that' model. Just another reason to encourage others to get a therapist if they possibly can.

Ah, thats gotta be hard, Im sorry!

 

[Panda Bear]

Interesting....

Last week T spent a good 20 min in session talking about what he thought was the "real me" as a child. All positive of course. Not what I say I was like, or what I repeat my parents told me I was. He was building on something important and has been for a while..... Building a new me, rebuilding my perception of my 'self'

He's also been on a fact finding mission about what I'm like at home. Learning about what kinds of talents and things I like to do. Learning as much as he can about me outside of my trauma.

He's rebuilding me.....thanks @shimmerz for your perception and knowledge.

 

[scout86]

I find that my SELF is kind of empty

What if that's an illusion? (Speaking from out here in left field. LOL) What if that's a variation on the theme of dissociation? I'm suggesting that somewhat because I have no idea what you're talking about. I can't even imagine it. And, as my T has said, I apparently couldn't dissociate if I wanted to. (He'd probably want me to add 'yet' because, strange as it probably sounds, he seems to think it would be useful to learn how.)

states of absolute and complete horror. And I have no idea what the horror is

Quoting my T again, what 'horror' is is a form of energy. A specific and unpleasant form, but it's just a type of energy. (We've been talking about this kind of a lot lately.) He says these feelings are not things, they are energies. So, you can FEEL depressed, but, according to this line of reasoning, you can't BE depressed. You can FEEL anxiety, but you can't BE anxiety. (Bad grammar but it illustrates the idea better.) Horror is a type of energy. It comes from somewhere. Something inspires it. You can feel it, experience it, etc, but it isn't a thing, it's energy.

I find that my SELF is kind of empty. And I am trying to figure out how to fill it up again.

I don't think your 'self' is empty at all. I think you just can't see it yet. Haven't sorted between what you've been told, what you might think, and what you truly believe.

And, I say that with a fair amount of confidence. We talk all the time. You're one of the least 'empty' people I know. There's a very real @shimmerz there and I'd bet I could recognize you in an anonymous thread. It might be that your self 'feels' empty. I'm pretty sure it's not.

Of course, I may have totally missed the point. Especially considering I'm still stuck at "What the heck are they talking about??????"

 

[shimmerz]

What if that's a variation on the theme of dissociation?

No. I think it is the feeling under the dissociation. And I wish it was an illusion.

You can feel it, experience it, etc, but it isn't a thing, it's energy.

Energy, to me, is a thing. It isn't a table or a chair like thing, but it is, I think, a driving force in our world/universe. Just my take on energy.

Haven't sorted between what you've been told, what you might think, and what you truly believe.

This is a really great statement and I appreciate it.

We talk all the time. You're one of the least 'empty' people I know.

We talk about trauma really. I think in terms of trauma. I don't think or live as I used to. The mother that I was, the business woman that I was, the wife that I was, the busy person that I was, the skier, tennis player, bike rider, swimmer, friend that I was. All of those things have been shattered around me.

You may notice that when you ask me 'how I am', that I don't answer. Because I have no idea. I think I have a grip on this though. I think I get it. I appreciate your words of support Scout. This one though, is a real thing for me. And it is time to move forward with it.
Much love to you

 

[scout86]

Energy, to me, is a thing.

M is kind of particular about 'things'. "A thing is something you can put in a wheelbarrow or a dump truck." I haven't quite figured out the reasons this is so important to him, but it seems to be really important. My own definition tends to be more flexible, but he's the language guru, so I'm guessing I just haven't figured it out yet. On the other hand, to say that energy is not a thing is not to say it's not real. I think what he means is that it's a force, not an object?

The mother that I was, the business woman that I was, the wife that I was, the busy person that I was, the skier, tennis player, bike rider, swimmer, friend that I was.

You might want to imagine a sigh here. LOL THAT I get. But I might see it differently than you do. I've been a lot of things and done a lot of things too. I've had a lot of goals. Accomplished pretty much none of them. Stuff happens, things change. Some of it I f'd up on my own, some of it other people helped with. Some of it, was bad luck. Some of it I only thought was bad luck at the time. The thing is, I look at all of those things as 'evolutions'. Once upon a time, I trained horses. It's something I did/was. But it's not WHO I was. Who I AM is independent of the roles I've played or will play. Those roles are like the roles an actor places, in a way. You put on the costume, you play the part, when it's over, you pick another part. You're still Meryl Streep, just in a different role.

You don't think or act like you used to because you aren't the person you used to be. You've learned things. You've changed. You've moved on. You can take on new roles. Meanwhile, you gained stuff by playing those old roles.

We talk about trauma really. I think in terms of trauma.

LOL Yeah, I guess that's true. And, I guess, when I think about it, I very much experience life 'in terms of trauma' although I don't always think of it that way. I think one of the things my T is working towards is getting me to see things differently. I can't quite conceive of 'differently' because this has been my life as long as I've been alive. Yours too.

You'll get this, I'm sure of it.