Confused By T's Reaction

[BlueOrange]

In terms of my own scripts, I don't believe that I truly know anything until I've explained it to someone, and addressed every objection that they might come up with.

This has led me to get into many spectacular arguments, and I've hurt a lot of people.

 

[scout86]

In that paragraph, you've said a thing that feels wrong to me.

What thing was that?

In terms of my own scripts, I don't believe that I truly know anything until I've explained it to someone, and addressed every objection that they might come up with.

That's kind of interesting. And it's also another way of thinking I wouldn't have thought of. I'm kind of used to the idea that other people don't see things the way I do and also don't get my explanations. In fact, they're probably going to tell me I'm "Wrong". So, what I think I know is one thing, what someone else believes is something else. While I believe in objective reality, it seems like people rarely agree on what it is. Which is part of the reason it catches me off guard when someone says they think I 'have to be right'.

 

[Sideways]

@BlueOrange - that was pretty big what you put out there, and I'm going to have to chew on it for a while.

My initial reaction is that, for some reason, DID brings me to a totally different conclusion. Even within my own mind, I live with multiple "truths" simultaneously. Different truths about my past, who I am, and how I interpret everything in the world.

Knowing the truth. Sounds like one of the simple concepts that I should be able to get my head around. But I can't. I don't even have a consistent version of my own truth.

There's an element of 'safety' about knowing that truth that several posters have reflected on here. But for me, I feel like that would be impossible. There is no safety in the truth for me.

I'm struggling to wrap my head around how the truth is such a big deal for all of us, all with histories of trauma, and yet our respective positions about it are like alien concepts to each other.

If nothting else, it makes me think that the OP's question - "Why did you need to be right?", is potentially hitting on something that a lot of us (me included) would benefit from considering a bit more. Especially since, like you said, it can (and does) cost us relationships.

 

[Sighs]

There is a line in a song that goes "We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?"

For subjective human beings identifying objective truth is very hard.

 

[sun seeker]

I've been reading this exchange feeling like someone watching a ping-pong game, trying to keep their eye on the ball. I have no desire to express an opinion on how important it is to be right, but just want to say that this:

My initial reaction is that, for some reason, DID brings me to a totally different conclusion. Even within my own mind, I live with multiple "truths" simultaneously. Different truths about my past, who I am, and how I interpret everything in the world.

... comes at just the right time for me. Thank you @Ragdoll Circus, this is very validating and helps explain something I'm grappling with at the moment.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread...

 

[Friday]

"Archeology is the search for fact, not truth. If it's truth you're interested in, Dr. Tyree's Philosophy class is right down the hall." - Indiana Jones

Just chiming in for a moment to point out the difference between facts & truth ;) Truth is subjective, and highly individual. At a certain point, becoming so much so that it fails to translate between individuals; what is true for one isn't true for all, yet still remains true. It is also entirely possible to hold 2 equal, yet opposite, truths in the palm of one's hands; to be of more than one mind, on any given subject under the sun. It is possible to lie with the truth, withhold part of the truth, and for what's true to change, over time; in the blink of an eye, or over the course of eons, matters not.

Facts, on the other hand, are simply that. Objective, quantifiable, universal, and unchanging. No matter how many times one washes one's hands. :p Truth is subjective. Facts are not.

 

[Sideways]

Truth is subjective. Facts are not.

And yet, once the world was flat:rolleyes:

I switched to using "truth" because it is more flexible. But the 'fact' of Adam & Eve is definitely "objective" still to a lot of people. And with politics and religion, people will often find 'facts' to support their beliefs, which contradict the next person's "facts". Discussions about the facts of gun control are a good example.

And with DID parts, it's a "fact" for one of my parts that I experienced D situation, but that's simply not objectively correct or factual to another part.

And since that doesn't make a lot of sense? I switched to "truth"!

 

[Abstract]

Oh I don't believe facts are universal at all.

Very very sadly. I can't say how horrible that is for me. Words could not express it. In this conversation I am in the fact loving camp! For all my life objective facts kept me and my life glued together. They still largely do. There is huge payoff externally too as I find it hides my issues to an extent. My rationality is something people see and moderates how they would see my other issues. In truth I think it does to an extent but I have started to see there are down sides. I have been on a journey trying to explore other ways of being (which is hard as there is less immediate payoff). When I started acknowledging the truth about truth (;)) and facts it was awful for me. I have been through 4 or so challenging years trying to see a way past absolutes.

Those absolutes extend into the realm of trusting people and letting myself be seen and heard. I won't go into how all these glue together for me here.

Science, mathematics, any sort of fact you can choose, is open to interpretation, politics, cultural interpretations, current knowledge and a whole mass of other things. Some things more than others of (very) course.

And when it comes to dual or multiple internal reactions to things - I have another side that sees the flexible less concrete ways of the world. Always internal conflict for me. As is the case for many of us I suspect.

 

[Abstract]

Ragdoll circus, I could be wrong but I suspect there is a part of you that needs to fact check a lot. Just from previous conversations. :)

 

[Sighs]

I've been in the business of spinning facts into truths. Its very very tricky. Eye witnesses often differ on the facts. Throw some expert opinion in on what the facts mean as far as truth goes?

PS - check out the website of the Flat Earth Society. I still can't figure out if its satire or not... :cautious:

 

[Muttly]

Where I'm coming from in this is that accurate, up to date information is very important. Honestly, on some level, if feels 'life or death' important. I suppose that isn't always literally true. :nailbiting: It's not that "I" always have to be right, it's that "information" needs to be right. Information isn't me. So I find the accusation that "I" always have to be right, kind of confusing. I don't think I'm doing anyone a favor by letting them operate based on inaccurate information. Quite the contrary. In fact, the more I like someone, the more likely I am to not let something like that go.......

So, a significant number other people don't care if they're operating based on inaccurate information? They'd rather be 'wrong' than corrected? (When I wrote that it occurred to me that 'wrong' is one of those words that has a rather special meaning and I wonder if that's got something to do with this too.) Can you guys explain this a little more? How is one supposed to know, without stepping on any toes in the process?

One of the things that stood out to me here are presuming a sense of responsibility for others. I understand you said it feels life and death, but most things, in the civilian world at least, aren't life and death. So, I'm going to switch from facts or truth to something else for an example of what I mean. if I saw someone using a hammer the wrong way I am probably not going to go tell them, unless they solicit help, I'm training/teaching/mentoring them or they in danger of whacking a finger. Or I might ask if they wanted advice. I am not going to assume that it's my place to do them the favor of showing them the right way to use a hammer. For me, it's the same with information.

I also agree with what @Abstract says. My background is science and my job, for the last 25 years has been conveying scientific and other information to the public. A fact in one context, could be a fallacy in another. Every once in a while, I will point out that we call things theory in science. It's not the fact of relativity, it's the theory. And I think that I'm such a black/white, pedantic kind of thinker that I hate saying things are right unless I can support it with evidence to an extreme extent.

 

[Sideways]

I suspect there is a part of you that needs to fact check a lot.

I'm starting to suspect that I need to reassess the value I place on facts altogether.