Structural Dissociation?

[Hope4Now]

@Valentino, this is brilliant.

 

[Hope4Now]

I've just reread @Valentino 's post again. For whatever it's worth, my response to it is a perfect example of how, when people are cycling/switching among parts all the time, they need to keep re-hearing things over and over again, so all the parts can understand. I've read Van der Kolk's book twice, plus a lot of his research articles. I KNOW this stuff intellectually. But it processed differently today--other parts took in some of it, and I am grateful for that.

Maybe this is why things like mindfulness and SELF-talk are practices. We have to keep doing them over and over again so they'll stick...remind all the parts that they are parts and not the whole self...help them talk to each other? Maybe this is why I sometimes feel like my therapist is repeating the same things over and over again to me, and they resonate differently each time. It is such a weird thing, this idea of parts. But it helps so much even though intellectually I know it's just a construct for forging new neural connections. I am still getting used to the idea that I'm in parts. It's as if it took that little bit of integration a few weeks ago to help me begin to realize the reality of parts.

Paradox...It is only as the walls start to crumble that I recognize their existence. They need to disappear to be real? Maybe not a paradox. Just musing.

I'm really intrigued by Lanius as well as Thompson and Zahavi, and am going to read more.

 

[Eleanor]

then got covered up with thought.

I'm not sure what this means. Can you explain more?

They need to disappear to be real? Maybe not a paradox.

Here is what I would say - they are always "real" before during and after integration. The eggs in my cake batter are real. They were real when they were just eggs. They are real in the cake. When I eat the cake... I assimilate the eggs into the mixture that is me. The issue is not reality, but individuation. When the different bits are integrated they de-individuate - but then so does the ANP. They merge into one coherent whole, instead of many coherent more limited wholes.

The implication here is that I am not (quite) the same me after I eat the cake as I was before....Which I think is kind of cool actually.

 

[Hope4Now]

The eggs in my cake batter are real.

Thank you. My literal parts appreciate this brilliant analogy. As they say in Boston, "You're so SMAAHT" :p. I will think eggs whenever I doubt the reality. I can do this. You once told me about ducks too. How did you get so good at this stuff?

 

[WhisperingUnicorn]

*fly on the wall*

I haven't caught up on this whole thread, but catching some of this latest back and forth, I wonder if some of my man's pain (AND pain "tolerance") issues might be DID related.

He has a few "off and on" chronic pain issues that don't have any obvious "cause" .. he is "undiagnosed" (complex trauma)PTSD-DID so does not have a Therapist, though he's been in counseling before - and previous counselors have never identified the DID. I (we) did only cuz he "let me in" on his secret when our relationship changed from "friends" to "more than friends" and he felt I had to know the "real" him.

One recent example, which has baffled us both (medically) AND which also is so bad it interferes with his and my future plans, is debilitating ELBOW pain .. no injury, no obvious "cause" - we have speculated about arthritis, but it's so inconsistent that doesn't seem right either. But ALL his work is with his hands - building/construction, property management type labor.

And this pain keeps him off projects .. which .. I now wonder reading some of this thread .. if it's somehow a "body" dissociation that is trying to sabotage his efforts (fear of our relationship's future?)? We really have no interest in "over-interpreting" BUT, IF this is DID related, we need to approach the problem from a completely different direction, and I don't have the first idea how to begin?!

ANYONE have any suggestions .. where to start?

~S2B

(PS - the pain "tolerance" has to do with his seemingly "super human" ability to tolerate major injury as though it is a scratch or a splinter. He has fallen off roofs, he has been in death-defying fights all his life .. when he "hard clicks" for self-defense, he's fearless in going after his attacker .. but his core person - "the heart of the man" (host/original personality/"middle me") is VERY intolerant of pain .. can come across very whiny over the least bruise ... not sure if that's relevant?)

 

[Hope4Now]

@ptsdspouse2b, there's lots of suggestions...always a good idea to start with the traditional medical route...x-ray/MRI etc. to rule out an organic cause, because even organically caused pain (like arthritis) can come and go. The tricky part is when the results are iffy...as in, yes there's something but the pain isn't really consistent with that...we could try a, b or c., etc. That's when people end up going down the rabbit hole of physical interventions for things that aren't necessarily coming from a physical cause. Pain meds, injections, etc. and getting caught in the loop of test after test after test. (E.g., I started with a chiropractor who provided instant relief for me because my hip had gotten stuck in a forward rotated position...but then it kept going back into that position and the pain continued...so he sent me off to another specialist...and so the journey began).

Beyond the traditional medical?...an experienced body worker may be able to diagnose whether the pain is caused by off-kilter kinds of movement/holding tensions. This can come from psychological/personality "parts" or just be habitual and not trauma related (kind of like carpal tunnel syndrome or tendenitis or bursitis). Alexander technique is good for this kind of thing, and so is cranial-sacral therapy. Have to be a little cautious though, because these kinds of things can bring up a lot of psychological stuff in the system. If your SO is aware of his DID maybe it wouldn't be an issue. It was a huge crisis for me...broke some kind of dissociative barriers that resulted in the meldown I am continuing to have in addition to the pain.

Beyond that...? Somatic Experiencing Therapist? Pain psychologist? Internal Family Systems Therapist (that's who I work with). Is there a reason he doesn't have a therapist? What you describe in your PS post IS relevant and suggests the pain could be coming from parts...

That's the extent of my small pool of suggestions for now. What are his thoughts on all this? Have you talked with him?

 

[WhisperingUnicorn]

WOW .. well, our health options are limited cuz no money and no insurance .. so we've done most of our "figuring out" on our own, but this means we're also in high stress and he, especially, is always very aware of not having help available if something happens (he gets sick, or whatnot). he will be on MY insurance once we're married, but the timing isn't decided, and he's adamant that we don't get married JUST to get him on my insurance. So there are some complicating limitations ..

Thank you @Hope4Now .. this is a VERY helpful way of wrapping my arms around the options - definitely a place to start, but also a little discouraging cuz still precluded by no money/no insurance options at present.

He IS aware of his DID .. now more than ever. He has run away from every place he's lived after about 18 months, until the last several years - in part cuz he was led to flee when people would get too close and discover he was "crazy" .. (when his "hard clicks" would become too obvious to hide).

He always described himself as a Gemini, believing he was split into 2 inside .. but in fact we know there are at least 4 who have voices. Three "alters" and himself. There may be more which could make themselves known in the future - when he's in a safer situation, once money and health stresses can be appropriately addressed, etc. Everything we know now has been because of my (borderline obsessive) digging into research to figure this out.

Most recently, I have come to believe he is "highly suggestible" .. as in, easily hypnotizable. I have learned this can be a natural talent for people with "DID" as it is in some ways like the child having "hypnotized" themselves in times of trauma/neglect/abandonment, etc. And I have seen him make significant changes in his life because he simply "willed himself" to do so. This ability is another reason I think he was able to "hide" his dissociations pretty well. Here he is approaching 50 years old, and he's only been able to "speak to" 2 of his alters directly for the past couple years. Before that he was much more "controlled" by circumstances - "clicking out" without any way to manage the switches.

*deep breath*

Thank you for affirming that the questions and observations are at least relevant .. it is very tempting for us to get "comfortable" with his switches cuz he has SO much improved, and is so much better able to control - AND he and I have been able to work through a lot of the past trauma - to the degree he can remember or piece things together. But this is one of those revelations that is tempting to make me feel like this is SO much bigger than we can handle alone .. We need PROVISION to move past this point .. not sure what that might look like as a timeline .. Now sure how best to ENCOURAGE him in the mean time, and how to nurture BOTH of our patience. :)

Thanks for the suggestions, though, at least this gives me another "jumping off point" to do further research! (It's what I do. ;) )

I welcome any other comments/suggestions from any and all who happen to see this. :)

~S2B

 

[WhisperingUnicorn]

Quick question - is the "ANP" an "alter"? or equivalent to the "host"?

Or in other words .. is it host/original self+ANP+EP+EP etc? or ANP(host/original self)+EP+EP etc.?

 

[Eleanor]

You could also try just asking. Specficially, when he is feeling really grounded and present (see above) ask the elbow what it needs to say, and what it needs to feel better. Make friends with the pain. Give it what it needs. I found it helped my H a lot when he was "out" to stay VERY centered and grounded myself and do Non-violent communication with him.

Once you've accessed the painful "not quite memories" and feelings, it might be possible for you to help him rewrite those experiences to have a better outcome. He gets rescued, is safe, is comforted etc.

My H can turn pain on and off like a lightbulb.

 

[WhisperingUnicorn]

It's hard for me to tell if he's turning the pain "off" or just "ignoring" it .. and I think this is hard for HIM to tell, too. He often comments about how he doesn't understand how it can "hurt like h*ll" one minute, and the next he can run the WHOLE DAY without even realizing there's a problem...

Definitely gonna need to do more asking. :) Thank you, @Eleanor ! :)

 

[Eleanor]

In Structural Dissociation (which isn't DID precisely because the bits have access to each other - albeit limited access) there is an ANP (apparently normal personality) which takes care of daily life. And then there can be EP's (emotional personalities) which are "stuck" in experiences where there is a lot of emotion and haven't been processed.

SD understands the package a little differently than other theories because it takes the creation of identity to be an accomplishment of development. Everyone starts out as a collection of separate consciousnesses. As we grow and develop and our emotions get integrated with our understanding of the world and make connections with each other, the consciousnesses unify. Sometimes a bit can split off again from a more or less unified adult in a very traumatic experience (as in "classic" PTSD.)

 

[Eleanor]

Is pain pain if you don't feel it? Good question.

I guess it would be more accurate to say it gets... disappeared. It is very odd.