somerandomguy
VIP Member
Yes, and on the whole, these guidelines seem to be making amends for the fact that medicine and psychology were formerly male-only fields by damning men of the present day to worse care than their sisters.
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News APA issues first-ever guidelines for practice with men and boys
- Post starter joeylittle
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somerandomguy
VIP Member
If so, I am only one of literally thousands (of all genders) who interprets the theory the way I do.
I'm not sure that 'worse care than sisters' bit is factual.
Mind you, closest to mine people quite often navigate US health care system from either gender or both perspective...
And read as cis males not of color, where applicable?
More door are open.
Not less.
So what are you basing that worse care bit *on*?
Mind you, closest to mine people quite often navigate US health care system from either gender or both perspective...
And read as cis males not of color, where applicable?
More door are open.
Not less.
So what are you basing that worse care bit *on*?
Mee
Diamond Member
Men needing help would automatically not have all the privileges. Having a mental health disorder is a disfranchisement from good health . Having a trauma leading to it can be disfranchisement from freedom from crime of threat to life or sexual autonomy.
somerandomguy
VIP Member
According to the APA guidelines, I need to have a warning label on my person. If the guidelines' standards of care are met, when I see a psychologist for the first time, they should inform me that I am a grave danger to myself and others around me.
And let's be frank - as an abused man, there is no way more doors are open for me over an abused woman. Doors slam shut in our faces. Many advocates agree that men can't get raped or be victims of IPV. Paper after paper is published saying that men shouldn't have resources, because we're predators, not victims.
And the APA is happy to stick its fingers in its ears and tell us this is all our fault, since we're agents of the Patriarchy.
And let's be frank - as an abused man, there is no way more doors are open for me over an abused woman. Doors slam shut in our faces. Many advocates agree that men can't get raped or be victims of IPV. Paper after paper is published saying that men shouldn't have resources, because we're predators, not victims.
And the APA is happy to stick its fingers in its ears and tell us this is all our fault, since we're agents of the Patriarchy.
somerandomguy
VIP Member
Resources are scarce. Intersectionality theory tells us resources need to be concentrated on those with the fewest privileges. That systematically disqualifies men.
Mee
Diamond Member
I will be frank. Though I continue to like you it is because of what ronin said, and my fear of risk of offending you and then triggering myself I feel stunted here and have found myself unable to continue with our other thing. This is NOT to say you are anything I don’t consider true to you or terrible but - yeah.
I came to feminism AFTER my trauma, dedd st pure being married to a white, male feminist. My history of knowing angry white feminists and angry black ones in my two different communities blocked me from its truths. I wanted a different word. ( still do) that’s my shit . However wrong I got it, and millions get it, doesn’t impact what it is.
I’m out- I don’t want this to become like the politics thread with people I really value.
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Look that these discussions even *exist* is such a huge step forward & privilege on its own.
Where I'm at? There isn't DV awareness even for *women* / things an usual American teenager knows about homicide risks are far more on point & realistic than an usual studied it 6 years local police officer. ((Not jabbing at local cops, given I'm still active in education there, translations, academia. The field is just behind & lacking. Not a people fault. Systemic leaky boat.))
Where I'm from? People get killed, sick people too & especially, by their own govt.
That the talks even exist is a good thing. Not one that should be thwarted.
Where I'm at? There isn't DV awareness even for *women* / things an usual American teenager knows about homicide risks are far more on point & realistic than an usual studied it 6 years local police officer. ((Not jabbing at local cops, given I'm still active in education there, translations, academia. The field is just behind & lacking. Not a people fault. Systemic leaky boat.))
Where I'm from? People get killed, sick people too & especially, by their own govt.
That the talks even exist is a good thing. Not one that should be thwarted.
somerandomguy
VIP Member
The good news is that the APA isn't a
thing for most therapists. Most of the therapists I know, even the ones who primarily treat men, haven't read the guidelines.
The APA shouldn't even be considered a moral force since their leaders wrote a white paper for Rumsfeld and George W. Bush saying how great torture worked.
thing for most therapists. Most of the therapists I know, even the ones who primarily treat men, haven't read the guidelines.
The APA shouldn't even be considered a moral force since their leaders wrote a white paper for Rumsfeld and George W. Bush saying how great torture worked.
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@somerandomguy ... Do you realize that all your complaints about how men are treated is exactly WHY this guideline is being published?
Not for the highly trained and vastly experienced (psychologists, psychiatrists, LCSWs, cops, doctors, nurses, etc.) who deal with the incrediably diverse range of human response on a day to day basis... but for the minimally trained, (court appointed evaluators, triageing CNAs & receptionists, CDPs, crisis line workers, school admin, elected officials, volunteers across a wide range of human services) whose only experience -and training!- is with the stereotypical female response, and who aren’t taught to look for other responses, nor in how to deal with them.
For example? A male abuse victim is unlikely to be weeping and wailing all over you, pleading their helplessness (stereotypical female response) but remaining stoic, and declaring themselves capable of handling the situation. How to draw them out, if you suspect they’re being stoic? Is not to slather them with sympathy (Oh! You POOR THING! Of course you’re sooooooo scared, but we’ll be here for you, protecting you...), but instead to appeal to the self same protective nature that’s most likely driving this encounter. To not be seen as weak, but capable... AND still deserving of help, because strong capable people aren’t afraid to use every resource at their disposal to protect their families. Use us, to help protect your family. Exact same situation deserving of assistance, whether stereotypically female or male; but different approaches are needed, to a) recognise that, & b) to enlist the same aid.
These minimally trained people are making HUGE decisions about other people’s lives, based on incorrect/incomplete info when all they have are the tendencies of women. The tendency to react/respond like this to this, and like that to that.... is somehing that’s understood by highly trained and experienced people to be just that. A tendency. Of one group. Not an absolute. Much less universal across all groups. But people who are relying on 3 weeks of training? NEED IT SPELLED OUT that there are other very very normal ways of reacting/responding. And be able to recognise them when they happen, and act accordingly, once they do recognise.
What you’re reading as a problem “with men, men are wrong, :mad: “, looked at another way is simply a problem with the existing system that doesn’t train people to deal with more than one very limited section of society; women who respond in stereotypically female ways.
The problem with stoicism (or any other stereotypically male trait)... could just as easily be replaced with the problem of histrionic weeping and wailing (or any other stereotypically female trait). Because, quite frankly, BOTH are problems to being able to help people. Not a problem with the sex/gender/individual... but a problem FOR the person trying to help them. Especially if they haven’t been trained how to, or even to expect to need to, or worse... that it’s a sign the person doesn’t need help. That they’re just being dramatic attention seekers if they’re being highly emotional, or not in need of any help, if they’re reserved.
Seriously... try going back and rereading the article replacing “men” with cops, firefighters, doctors, vets, refugees, torture victims, etc. ANY other subgroup of the population... and see if you can read it as an attempt to help people who will be dealing with that subgroup better understand where they’re coming from, what they need, and how to help them. Instead of misunderstanding what they’re seeing, mistaking what that means, and proceeding to be the opposite of helpful. Because they don’t grok what’s right in front of them, plain as the nose on your face for anyone who actually knows anything about that group.
And I THINK what you may find? Is that instead of it being what you’re angry about... that it’s the opposite. That men’s issues and men’s needs aren’t just being lumped in & ignored & treated as being wrong if they don’t react like women... but are being given the very real consideration and treatment they deserve, as being different but equally worthy of understanding and addressing appropriately, rather than dismissing or mistaking.
Not for the highly trained and vastly experienced (psychologists, psychiatrists, LCSWs, cops, doctors, nurses, etc.) who deal with the incrediably diverse range of human response on a day to day basis... but for the minimally trained, (court appointed evaluators, triageing CNAs & receptionists, CDPs, crisis line workers, school admin, elected officials, volunteers across a wide range of human services) whose only experience -and training!- is with the stereotypical female response, and who aren’t taught to look for other responses, nor in how to deal with them.
For example? A male abuse victim is unlikely to be weeping and wailing all over you, pleading their helplessness (stereotypical female response) but remaining stoic, and declaring themselves capable of handling the situation. How to draw them out, if you suspect they’re being stoic? Is not to slather them with sympathy (Oh! You POOR THING! Of course you’re sooooooo scared, but we’ll be here for you, protecting you...), but instead to appeal to the self same protective nature that’s most likely driving this encounter. To not be seen as weak, but capable... AND still deserving of help, because strong capable people aren’t afraid to use every resource at their disposal to protect their families. Use us, to help protect your family. Exact same situation deserving of assistance, whether stereotypically female or male; but different approaches are needed, to a) recognise that, & b) to enlist the same aid.
These minimally trained people are making HUGE decisions about other people’s lives, based on incorrect/incomplete info when all they have are the tendencies of women. The tendency to react/respond like this to this, and like that to that.... is somehing that’s understood by highly trained and experienced people to be just that. A tendency. Of one group. Not an absolute. Much less universal across all groups. But people who are relying on 3 weeks of training? NEED IT SPELLED OUT that there are other very very normal ways of reacting/responding. And be able to recognise them when they happen, and act accordingly, once they do recognise.
What you’re reading as a problem “with men, men are wrong, :mad: “, looked at another way is simply a problem with the existing system that doesn’t train people to deal with more than one very limited section of society; women who respond in stereotypically female ways.
The problem with stoicism (or any other stereotypically male trait)... could just as easily be replaced with the problem of histrionic weeping and wailing (or any other stereotypically female trait). Because, quite frankly, BOTH are problems to being able to help people. Not a problem with the sex/gender/individual... but a problem FOR the person trying to help them. Especially if they haven’t been trained how to, or even to expect to need to, or worse... that it’s a sign the person doesn’t need help. That they’re just being dramatic attention seekers if they’re being highly emotional, or not in need of any help, if they’re reserved.
Seriously... try going back and rereading the article replacing “men” with cops, firefighters, doctors, vets, refugees, torture victims, etc. ANY other subgroup of the population... and see if you can read it as an attempt to help people who will be dealing with that subgroup better understand where they’re coming from, what they need, and how to help them. Instead of misunderstanding what they’re seeing, mistaking what that means, and proceeding to be the opposite of helpful. Because they don’t grok what’s right in front of them, plain as the nose on your face for anyone who actually knows anything about that group.
And I THINK what you may find? Is that instead of it being what you’re angry about... that it’s the opposite. That men’s issues and men’s needs aren’t just being lumped in & ignored & treated as being wrong if they don’t react like women... but are being given the very real consideration and treatment they deserve, as being different but equally worthy of understanding and addressing appropriately, rather than dismissing or mistaking.
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