Do narcissist parents have children for supply?

[MyWillow]

@Suzetig yeah that’s exactly what I meant. I wasn’t saying that NPD is on a scale.

 

[Friday]

It’s when they happen consistently and excessively that they become disordered.

Exactly. Which is half of why I’m asking.

that’s exactly what I meant. I wasn’t saying that NPD is on a scale

And that’s the other half! :D

The difference between moving toward Midline vs Black & White thinking.

Because it can seem alluring when, say, one cares too much... to not care at all. Picking the opposite extreme & aiming for that, in my experience rarely ends up with the middle ground. Training yourself not to care, instead, winds up with more pathology, more bad habits, more bad coping mechanisms. Like disassociation, avoiding situations you risk caring, or a drinking problem. Because the goal is not to care, rather than to learn to care less, or care differently.

 

[TruthSeeker]

This conflicts with other things I've read. For instance, I've read that narcs are in fact extremely i...

My T agrees that NPDs are extremely insecure but are masters at pretending to appear secure. That’s why they have to masquerade as a know it all, be righteous, put you down if you don’t agree with their position- rather than respectfully disagree, criticize, belittle-emotionally berate making their targets feel little and this helps to inflate themselves and their little egos and appear as having strong self esteem. It is a total false sense of self - false sense of personal security. All the while they continue to showcase their strengths, and believe what they say, and pretend to sympathize in difficult situation- but they can’t empathize- and they never step outside themselves into someone’s shoes to feel their pain. They cant. What they are is normal- and everyone should want to be like them.

They can’t empathize. If they did, the focus would shift off of them emotionally. Narcissists have one motivation to help others- their has to be a personal payoff- they are not generous without a personal reason. They appear to empathize but really the best they can do- is sympathize if there is a personal payoff. Warm and fuzzy is not always a strength.

Control and manipulation are hallmark behaviors. They can be explosive, when they feel things are falling apart and they feel like they are losing control,and they can be very manipulatively charismatic. Personal pronouns they used are often me, my and mine- they don’t consider the pronouns “us or our” so much in conversation because focus is on their successes- their greatness- and feeding their false sense of self esteem.

 

[ILoveLife]

The way I see it... Diagnoses imply treatment, not a label to judge character. Whether it's schizophrenia or bipolar or bpd or npd, what really matters is what the person does or chooses to do.

Most people that harm others don't have diagnoses, and some you can't even tell whether one trait belongs to one disorder or another.

In my experience, having a label means jack shit for how you actually behave and behaving like shit doesn't automatically mean label either.

 

[TruthSeeker]

The way I see it... Diagnoses imply treatment, not a label to judge character. Whether it's schizophrenia...

Quite true! We might all be “labeled” by others as crazy in one time frame and sane in another. You can’t treat a label- you treat the behavior.

 

[TruthSeeker]

@Bkinder that doesn't sound like narcissism, that sounds like anti-social personali...

Good point: Bro is more like anti- social traits w narcissistic traits as well while x husband acts more narcissistic- in a world all about him and only him. Thanks.

Consider, for all behavior traits (pick anyone you like) positive or negative, there is a range- low to high.
Narcississm is a behavioral trait which in low doses can work for someone and they’d be considered healthy and successful at their job.Anger, talkativeness, sadness, kindness, all behavior and different people display them in different amounts at different times. Consider too much or too little of any one of these behaviors could cause problems for self and others. Some traits that people who’ve experienced trauma may “ automatically see” as negative aren’t necessarily for a particular situation and person. They can be healthy and help a person in their daily life.

When I started going to T the words anger, controlling, overly-dramatic, lying, and selfish were “bad” words-and I wanted nothing to do with those traits or people who displayed them in my direction. But as I’ve been able to sit back and reassess, they can be bad traits in certain circumstances if intent is to harm me, and good traits in other circumstances and amounts- and I need those traits too but in moderation to be successful. Connotation is critical.

 

[joeylittle]

I’m curious - and this is purely in the interest of discussion -

Is there an advantage to understanding narcissists as being insecure with small egos and low self-concept?

I imagine it would be in order to find a way to empathize with them - since insecurity is something most people experience at some point.

My T agrees that NPDs are extremely insecure but are masters at pretending to appear secure. That’s why they have to masquerade as a know it all, be righteous, put you down if you don’t agree with their position...this helps to inflate themselves and their little egos and appear as having strong self esteem.

I understand this is what your T says, it’s just a little surprising to me.

Grandiosity - a hallmark of narcissists/NPD - results from an excess of ego, not a deficit. A strong self-concept. It’s not a behavior that is activated in order to compensate for, or in reaction to, low esteem. Other of the known personality disorders ‘puff up’, in order to push people away or down - but at their core, they are more afraid than not.

What makes narcissism distinct is the strong ego.

Now - were that all, they’d just be blowhards.

But because that overinflated ego is also fragile - it is easily threatened. And that is what leads to all the negative behaviors you list.

Low-self esteem can drive very similar behaviors, yes.

But narcissists aren’t insecure. It’s like there’s a blind spot where their insecurity should be. Instead of insecurity, there’s a great belief in themselves as the true center of their world. They can’t allow others to put that belief at risk - so, they compete, belittle, abuse, revenge...on and on.

Honestly - they are way worse than someone who is hurting on the inside, and so hurts others. That’s bad enough, but it indicates that the individual is capable of at least empathy for the self.

Narcissists lack anything that would put their ego in check. That’s also why they don’t think anything is wrong with them.

So back to original question - is there an advantage to understand them as having insecurity as their main drive, rather than out of control competition?

 

[TruthSeeker]

I’m curious - and this is purely in the interest of discussion -

Is there an advantage to unders...

Good question- My perception of the narcissist was anything but a secure being. If you are secure in your self- you have no need to be overly competitive. If you are secure, you will be able to share. If you are secure in yourself, you will stand up for the other guy when they are wronged, when secure in your self-you have no reason to lie and manipulate- because you are comfortable with who you are. You would know your authentic self. When you are secure in yourself- life is more gray- not always black and white or right or wrong- secure people can see and acknowledge many ways to solve problems or ways of living and allow others to make their own solutions to problems.
So the security I see in narcissists is a “false security”
not a healthy sense of security- not a real security- they struggle to create a predictable world by manipulating others and when it doesn’t happen they get anxious and sometimes explode. This is not security- at least not in a positive sense. Maybe that’s where we differ.
My x husband couldn’t go anywhere new, he was afraid of new things and very insecure in problem solving away from the house or in areas he was unfamiliar. He could keep up his show on familiar ground with people he knew he could bedazzle and/ or hurt and get away with it.
To appear secure, in a discussion outside the realm of his comfort zone, he’d make an argument and pad it with all this research he had read, ( but hadn’t) quote professional people he had talked to ( and hadn’t) quote a history or PBS shows he had seen ( but hadn’t) - to support something ridiculous.
To finally answer your question:
My perception is just that- And seeing someone as a
weak human with such a sad lot to have to hurt others to have a life just to feel secure in life- even tho he caused me great pain and grief, is easier for me to “put them in their place of the past and close a door” is easier to pity them.

 

[Suzetig]

weak human with such a sad lot to have to hurt others to have a life just to feel secure in life- even tho he caused me great pain and grief, is easier for me to “put them in their place of the past and close a door” is easier to pity them.

It’s absolutely fine that this is your perception given it helps you close the door, it doesn’t mean it’s accurate in terms of clinical presentation of NPD.

Your concept of what it means to be secure follows the popular concept of secure self esteem etc which isn’t what @joeylittle or I are describing.

 

[shimmerz]

is there an advantage to understand them as having insecurity as their main drive, rather than out of control competition?

I will answer this, although you didn't ask me.

I searched for this answer mostly because there was a huge amount of 'uncraziness' in my head when I realized what had happened to me most of my life and what types I was attracting in my primary relationships. That crazymaking was their style. It explains the sadistic behaviour, the gaslighting, the verbal abuse.

For me it has nothing to do with empathizing. I have tried to empathize with these types all of my life and it has gotten me nowhere good. And knowing that empathy is not a hallmark of them (although they can pretend when they want something) I know what to look for now. What to test.

Also, for me, the insecurity thing is important, although I am still on the fence about what I feel about what role insecurity plays with these types. The reason it is important is because they seem so impermeable emotionally, so knowing that there is insecurity under there helps me to understand a potential weakness. That`s important to me because I seem to be the only one in these relationships that tends to get destroyed when I finally realize who I am with and have to leave.

Also, I have a group of children and grandchildren that I need to be mindful of. I know my oldest son is completely and utterly enmeshed -- and although he acts all tough and is manipulative and wants only what he wants no matter what happens to the target has been good for me to know too. Because he pretends to be helpful and then stabs in the back. And the heart. And doesn`t think a thing about it.

So yes, I know who my son used to be -- and his father made him
1. insecure
2. powerful
which is quite an internal conflict.

Which leads me to believe that deep down there is a fragmented part of him that is VERY insecure. So if he were to have to go through the process as we are here -- tearing down the rebuild, I am positive that under his grandiosity is a child shaking in the corner -- needing to hide from the very person that he has emulated along the way.

The problem is with these types there needs to be a target. It is the only way that they hide the insecurity. So yeah, I guess I am not sitting on the fence with this one. I know my son and I know how he got to where he is now. I paid attention. And it wasn`t fun for him but rather than being the target he sold his soul.

Interestingly enough, the son who always refused to stand separate from his father is a very successful 30+ man who knows exactly what he wants and although assertive, he is not aggressive.

The son who is enmeshed? Huge addiction issues with CPTSD last I heard. Of course. Because he was parented by two diametrically opposed beings. He has to be riddled with conflicts beyond the wildest imagination. It breaks my heart that I put my children in this situation. I had so many better choices when it came to my first marriage.

Anyway, golden children, in my humble opinion, are used to carry the lineage on wards. Scapegoats? Can go suck eggs while they die. They hold too strongly to their morals and values and ethics to ever be golden children.

Just opinions. Who knows whether I know what I am talking about.

 

[TruthSeeker]

It’s absolutely fine that this is your perception given it helps you close the door, it doesn’t mea...

1. @Suzetig- when you responded to my answer to Joeylittles question, it had an air of “ Im dumb- your right.” You want to know something funny? I don’t find much feeling in your post- just “ what’s clinically right in your opinion” Our opinions should be respected-as they are based on our experiences. If my rational helps me move forward- an attaboy/ or girl would be more to the point than the response you gave. Please respect my opinions. My name is BKinder. Please do so. My name clearly tells my needs.

2. Joeylittle was very respectful and I’m fine with him-regardless of his opinion about this topic.

3. I’ve lived in a world where the view is narrow, the rules are rigid, where they change, where I’m wrong and the other guy has to be right all the time or make me feel dumb trying. No one gains this way in life.

4. You can’t clinically diagnose someone on a forum. I shared a part of myself- my life - my beliefs-your response borders on dismissive. It doesn’t help me move forward and standing on a DSM5 rule book of MH diagnosis- it doesn’t change the past- and won’t impact my future or yours really. And debating NPD, PTSD, BP, on a forum leaves a bad impression for folks seeking comfort and understanding when it is done leaving a kinda rude or short impression cause Im not communicating in your ballpark.

5. I’m not stupid-am literate-and likely as educated or possibly more than you. I might not agree with you, but Ill do my best to validate your feelings and communicate feelings w/o trouncing on you in the name of having to be right about whatever the topic.

6. @Suzetig I believe healing from connecting w others w trauma is the goal for all of us-and could be helpful. We both look for the same thing- life contentment. I believe in self- healing. I believe in the resilience and power of the soul. And it’s okay if we are different and have different beliefs and ideas.

7.But it’s a turn off when I run into “your right- I’m off base or clueless attitude” so I ask you....which goal is more important as a moderator?

A. Being supportive of a person struggling to find tjeir way and making them feel positive about the difficult journey they are undertaking or

B. having to be right and making sure to tell them so in such a way you look better than them?

8. Please remember, many of us have been broken by those having to be right. Be careful with your words- they can be powerfully supportive or demeaning.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I will answer this, although you didn't ask me.

I searched for this answer mostly because there was...

Good points!