News Donald Trump's Popularity To Date

[scout86]

"Bakunin called Marx on this - and Bakunin clearly foresaw that Marx proposals would create a brand new class of all powerful bureaucrats (the "nomenklatura") far more abusive and dangerous than any king or aristocracy or capitalists, Bakunin also clearly saw that you do not eliminate the state by making it all powerful)"

I'm not quite ready to agree that they're MORE abusive and dangerous, but they certainly can be abusive and dangerous. And at least some of that seems to be more due to being rigid and kind of stupid rather than intentionally evil. (I have a few "good" stories related to our current health care "system".) Seems to me that a big part of the problem is that people are people. Absolute power DOES corrupt, absolutely and some people really seem to crave power. We need to keep those people on a short lease. I think the founders of this country wrote our constitution with that in mind and I'm glad they did. But, there's a temptation to take the lazy way out and just turn the decision making over to those who want to do it. And they are probably the very people we need to keep a close watch on.

 

[Anarchy]

As far as whether or not Trump would try to exterminate an entire class of people....... Hitler had "a thing" about the Jewish people. But they were also a convenient target. Germany, at the time, had suffered a decline following WWI. There were a lot of people who's standard of living had declined and they were looking for someone to blame it on. Someone who could easily be thought of as "the others". The Jewish people were a convenient target.

Prior to 1914, the Tzarists were THE anti semitic regime. Germany was seen as far more accepting of Jews.

Britain, looking to finance a war against Germany, and on the side of THE anti semitic regime, had a big problem:

how to get those big banks which were owned by Jews, to back the side that the Tzar was on?

That appears to have been achieved by offering the Zionists the then Ottoman province of Palestine. There also appears to have been a stitch up organised and coordinated against the Tzar, with the coordinated movement of Lenin through Germany and into Russian held Finland, and a similar movement of Leon Trotsky out of America and over the Atlantic to join him.

Following WW1, the French delegation at the Versailles treaty negotiations screwed Germany over as the culprit for starting the war ( Russian and French forces were over the border into Germany before Germany had even mobilised its army), and landed Germany with massive reparations. The French finance minister was jewish...

Germany didn't actually lose the war, the German army was actually making advances in France, but there was widespread revolt in Germany, with cities being taken over by soviets (Hitler actually participated in one of the soviets)
Jews are prominent as intellectuals and in politics so it is not a surprise that some of the prominent people in the soviets were Jewish.

Those factors were all taken as evidence that jews had betrayed and humiliated Germany

and hitler was determined to avenge that.

there is also the element that Germany had the first welfare state, and, as I discussed earlier in the thread, that brings inherrent and un avoidable problems,but rather than being recognised as unavoidable, they are instead variously blamed on the incompetence of the system's administrators and on undeserving people consuming all of the resources of that welfare state...

The social side of Hitler's campaign was to make the welfare system work and to extend it, Hitler would manage it and the "undeserving" (Jews, disabled and inferior races) would be ousted from abusing and wasting the welfare system's resources

https://www.myptsd.com/threads/donald-trumps-popularity-to-date.55545/page-11#post-975973

 

[Anarchy]

I'm not quite ready to agree that they're MORE abusive and dangerous, but they certainly can be abusive and dangerous.

The danger increases with the areas of life that they have control over

In the case of the soviet regime, Marx would never have got a foothold

• where could he have spoken when all venues were state controlled
• where could he have published when all paper and all printing presses were controlled by the regime
• how could he have been funded (Marx was never out of the to 5% to 10% of incomes in Germany and then Britain during his adult life, and in the latter part he sponged that from Engels, the textile mill owner - and even then he was always bitching that everyone else was obsessed with money) when income was "to each according to their need"
• under both the soviet system and in hitler's germany, people were increasingly assigned to jobs, regardless of what the people actually wanted to do

In the case of the monopoly provision of health care and education, what you find is that price can no longer be used to ration demand, so demand must be rationed in other ways, usually by vastly increased waiting times and in decreased quantity and quality available

In Britain there is a body called NICE which decides what drugs and treatments Brits can get on the NHS, and which ones they are not allowed and must go to America or Switzerland to be able to pay for

there is also no way for knowledge to arise on what people would actually like, as there are no competitors offering new services

and there is no way to know at what level services should be priced (even when it is free at the point of delivery - it still has to be paid for somehow)

one of the by products of that lack of knowledge and information which arises naturally on the market in the form of prices - is the massive bureaucratic structure that you see in the departments of education, and brits see as health service managers and bureaucrats

there is also no competition to penalise that excessive growth of bureaucracy

 

[Powder]

What is actually most frightening to me about the Nazis was that they funded their arms by duping their own working populace by selling punchcards to buy a Volkswagen bug (The People's Car), back when few Germans had a family car. The money had to be deposited weekly without missing any payments in exchange for stamps to fill a booklet. When, full, people were supposed to have a paid for car. Nobody received this because the funds went to making bombs.

If you look at what the camps did, they actually harvested the hair, dental gold and labor of the people in their camps, mostly Jews. They used them like a natural resource, a human crop, a harvest in a quasi cannibalistic way. They treated them like animals, killing or using them as deemed most profitable.

The Mexican laborer is used and then deported in an exploitative way. His family is hated for being illegal and "taking" from resources as if not human. Who cares if his children are constantly in fear of her parents being deported one night? We are not to the point of Hitler, no. But the exploitation of others is a form of Indifference. Widespread Indifference is the necessary precondition for scapegoating a group, which could, under the right economic and political conditions, lead to genocide.

My experience working with Mexican-American children of illegal immigrants has shown me the pain these kids grow up with that traumatizes them in specific ways. They live in fear of some kind of mass hatred. Words like Trumps really does frighten them, as individuals.

In days past, Japanese-American citizens were placed in camps in the West, also during WWII. I'm sure fear of mass roundups and deportations or imprisonments is not totally unfounded.

After being brought here on slave ships, African-Americans were being considered for deportation of some kind rather than being considered full and free citizens I believe. Some haters still say "go back to Africa" to people in their ignorance. The slaves lost knowledge of their name, country or origin, everything. They were taken from their parents. Nobody knows their ancestry or origins of Africa, or very few do. Few know which region their ancestors come from. This has all been stolen from them, taken by force, and then people who really don't care shout this insult at them?

It's beyond cruel and shows a total lack of empathy possible when caught up in group psychology.

As long as Americans are caught up in wanting a share of the lifestyle of the 1%, we are in danger of misplaced priorities and we will still be voting for people who speak to our sense of "business" yet without a plan to make America more safe and equitable for all its citizens.

Terrorism is a world concern right now, and I hope that is also a priority. But the poor economy is still the #1 concern. I just don't have much hope any political group can champion any change that is real.

 

[prayingforpeace]

I do not have the ability to debate world politics at your level Anarchy, Scout86 or Muse. I've read each comment and I'd agree with everything I've read. I am not as knowledgeable as to the intricacies of the Communist Manifesto or the NSDAP. I cannot argue as I'm unqualified. Nor would I want to argue. I've only tried to explain my feeling toward what I see as civilized vs. uncivilized debate in our current political climate. I've stated it's only my opinion and I quoted Obama because I felt that his statement best described what I think is the most effective way to "reach" the other side. I was using the statement more as an overview of how we treat our fellow citizens, not really as a vehicle to argue fascism or any other ism. More as a "mood" under which to debate.

@scout86, I do not believe that Hillary will "overthrow" our government. I do believe that we need to always be watching because either side is capable of corruption and bringing this country farther down the rabbit hole. I wholly trust neither. Like was quoted above, absolute power corrupts absolutely

 

[Ellabella44]

@scout86 yes what you said about the ego of both candidates I completely agree with. I see Hillary as the better choice if it comes between her and trump. I am independant, partly because I hate those stupid election calls and the its your party and you must vote for it pressure

I see him as a threat. Screaming and telling stories that can not be backed up with facts. (for example my father going after my mother he claims were isolated incidents, when I was there and know better) Do I want someone who reminds me of my fathers behavior to become president - NO.

So I do not see this thread as bashing him or disagreeing with others, but really putting into words and facts on why those of us posting in it see him as a threat to being able to live in a civilized world.

 

[Anarchy]

This is worth a watch to get some background on the story of Marxian and Soviet socialism and its collaboration with German national socialism up until the national socialists launched operation Baberosa and Invaded the Soviet empire.

Putin's thugs kicked the crap out of the the Latvian ambassador to Moscow after the film was released, Even now, looking into the mass graves is not welcomed - anywhere.

Incidentally, the "Heroes" of the Cuban revolution were absolutely no better.
Arnesto Guevara as a teenager had raped one of his parents' maids infront of his pals. His favourite way to de-stress was to walk in on an interrogation, rant on at the terrified victim then blow the victim's brains out.

 

[prayingforpeace]

I only went thru the first 3 pages. I acknowledge how, now that I've disagreed with the tone at times, those whom I disagreed with will automatically dislike me. It saddens me that my wanting to separate the person from the view has basically caused anger. Deep down we are all just people and many of us, including those on the "other" side, often want the same things. I know most of you disagree with my stance and I don't feel hate toward you for it. I have felt attacked since I posted and I'm not even a trump supporter. If I say hate encourages hate, how is that so insulting? Do you feel that hate is productive? If so, is it the bully effect? If enough of us show how much we hate the other side, then maybe they will feel so bad about their position that they will flip? IDK. How many of you will now hate me because I've disagreed with a tone? How can their be a productive conversation when any form of dissent is met with attack or animosity?

So I do not see this thread as bashing him or disagreeing with others,

i hope somebody backs a lawnmower over donald trump's smarmy f*cking face.

The majority of Americans are Democrats and other sane people"

Curious how much he spends on makeup. And the flat coxcomb. Was he a punker at one time?

He needs throat punched.

He wants to bang his daughter

 

[prayingforpeace]

I just want to add that everyone has a right to say what they think. I'm not trying to say that these things shouldn't have been said in the context of a persons right to free speech. I knew what the result would be for me, and it took courage on my part to speak out believe it or not. It is just that dissent in this country, on either side is often met with anger. I'm sure if y'all were disagreeing with trump supporters on a trump site, it would be met with the same animosity. I just wish that there could be a better way, for all of us.

 

[Deleted member 28740]

@prayingforpeace Dialog is good and then there is also the vanity scrutiny of those seeking power - thus my comment about Trump hair / makeup. Taxes payers money …. it was not a idle comment.

From June 16, 2016. Israeli PM’s visit cost taxpayers $541,886 according to details published after months of efforts to prevent release

A visit to New York by Israel’s prime minister, Link Removed, and his wife Sara cost the country’s taxpayers $541,886 (£382,000) , according to a detailed breakdown published after months of attempts by his office to prevent its release.

The cost – which included thousands of dollars for hairstyling and makeup for Netanyahu – follows a series of other recent controversies over the luxurious life enjoyed by the prime minister at the taxpayer’s expense – not least their travel.

Striking inclusions among the expenses listed for the visit to the UN’s general assembly last autumn were the cost of maintaining Netanyahu’s distinctive coiffure, at $1,600 – equivalent to more than $300 per day for the trip.

Similarly, Netanyahu’s makeup artist was billed at $1,750.

Perhaps this is the "Nixon" effect that claims he lost the election to JFK be causes he looked bad on TV.

 

[Anarchy]

Hi Prayingforpeace,

I put a few questions up previously for you to ponder on.

Before wondering why politics brings about such animosity, you need to ask;

• what is politics?
• what it is for doing?
• and how does it do those things?

• What would separate politics form other areas where humans come together to do things, for example a a book club, a church, a business, or a walking group?
  
• What would separate what politics does from what say a charity, a church or a business would do?
  
• and what would separate the way that politics goes about doing those things?

There might be rivalry between two groups of people; say people who like pepsi and people who like coke, or between people who'd rather drive a ford pickup than a chevy, and people who like Chevy pickups

but it doesn't get to the level of animostiy that it does with politics

If you ponder those questions you'll see why there is so much potential for animosity in politics

If you want to cheat,

Spoiler

look up the term "volountaryist" - even the term gives it all away

 

[prayingforpeace]

If you ponder those questions you'll see why there is so much potential for animosity in politics

If you want to cheat,

Thanks for the link Anarchy, I've read the wiki page but will continue reading more. I guess that if there was not strong dissent during Abraham Lincolns time, we wouldn't have advanced to where we are today. Thank God people hated slavery! I may feel the way I do, hence my name on this forum, but I guess it is not the way most Americans feel. I will respect that I am in a very small (myself) group and that maybe my way is not productive. Please understand that I DO understand what politics is, the use for it and how it does those things. I've even done some research since you asked me those questions. Maybe y'all are right and that having strong enough feelings to cause us anger/hate is needed to change the world. I can accept that I may be wrong. I am a Christian and I guess I see things differently through that filter.

ps I knew I'd get some less than loving responses but I didn't think what I said would cause the reaction it actually did.

Okl, y'all win.