News Donald Trump's Popularity To Date

[hodge]

Is it intelligence? Is it realistic conclusions based on reliable research? What is it?

 

[Justmehere]

@RussH - While I disagree with you about Trump, I am incredibly grateful for your sharing your thoughtful and respectful viewpoints. Thank you. It's great to understand better what brings you to support Trump.

 

[Deleted member 28740]

Do a little research with out judgement and you just might realize that it is more about having common sense.

Gizmo, on quite a few posts today you mentioned you are doing research. And also started a new post anti Hillary Clinton. I am confused by your posts. I find this post about common sense baffling.

 

[hodge]

Yaay, Scout! Minnesota nice to the forefront again!

 

[joeylittle]

I'll say upfront that I don't feel great about either major party candidate, and I'm not affiliated with Dems or Repubs.

When taking the tally on past actions - aka 'things they've done that are possibly considered illegal, immoral, or criminal' - around the time I've got ten or so negative points on each side, I feel like I don't care to add it up any more. That's to say: well, they are both highly ambitious people in America - one in politics, the other in business - and you don't get to climb either of those ladders without being ruthless.

So, instead of looking at past crimes (since they both have them, whether they've been convicted or not), I try and look at the race itself. Policy statements. Conduct. Strategy. Debate.

Something that makes it very very hard (for me) to evaluate them side by side is that Trump has been so far outside the 'presidential candidate' mold that we've been seeing for decades.

He's not spent any part of his life in the political arena. He's amassed an enormous fortune being a very successful capitalist.

Put him side by side with other highly successful capitalists, and they will be easier to compare to each other; they play on the same field.

Put him up there in a debate with career politicians, and he seems alternately like a refreshing burst of bluntness and a callous egomaniac.

He's a TV personality. And I see him harnessing some of the same kind of support that went to Reagan: it's recognizability and pop celebrity status.

He campaigns with no fear or restraint because he has absolutely no funders he's accountable to. But does that make him a better candidate for president, or just a really rich guy who can apparently even railroad through his own political party, because of limitless resource?

It's like looking at a hockey player and a basketball player and trying to figure out which of them will be the better competitive swimmer. How the f*ck do you tell? What's the comparison point?

It seems to circle back around to gut, to looking at how they are built, and trying to predict which might have a better toolbox. Because nothing they say or do, now, is going to guarantee anything they do in the future.

But I strongly believe Trumps rise in this race has a lot to do with his utter lack of ties to or experience within the US political machine. And for better or worse, I think that's ultimately going to be what makes someone vote for or against him. Either he looks like real change, or he looks like a dictator.

Because what else is a CEO, really? A dictator - but in a capitalist sense, not a political one.

And what else is a career politician, except either 'experienced' or 'a liar'? That's been the battle cry against 'politicians' for a very long time - they lie. They spin. And those in favor of them appreciate their experience and time logged on the Hill and internationally.

These are my opinions. I started working up the two columns of 'bad shit they've done', and then decided that people are probably familiar enough with the gist.

 

[sedna]

I really don't think he needs to do anything. I think they damaged their careers, at least on a national...

Russ - That is the point, actually. He doesn't need to do anything, he plans to anyway. Retribution for narcissistic ego injury. Expected of a major power figure with that type of ego, but he is not yet a president. He only just began politics, and even more recently became a Republican, yet he feels he can retaliate at whim for being rejected by career long Republics when they show a public lack of support.

This trait is giving most people serious reservations about Trumps capabilities as a grown up in general. You have to remember that he inherited a real estate fortune. His alcoholic brother was disinherited by their father, when he died Trump refused to make fair provisions for his children , but offered to pay for thee infant son of his nephew's medical care for cerebral palsy. They sued to retrieve their inheritance, and Trump cut off the payments for the child. This dragged out in court until they settled for less than fair. He also was present when his father wrote the new will, while his father had dementia.The luxury of not worrying about court costs made it easy for him to win the typical game of the wealthy, bring them to their knees with delays and legal fees, then they'll take a lousy deal to settle out.
He initially denied cutting off his nephews child out of anger, but then later admitted in an interview that he did it because he was angry that they sued.
This is not the guy who will be charitable under the radar, as you mention. It may not be publicized when he does something charitable, but there is likely a motive that is to his advantage.

It is noteworthy that he handled his fathers will the way he did, not because it makes him a jerk, but because it seems to be a consistently overlooked fact that he inherited between 100 and 200 million ( depending on the source, he downplays his inheritance and put at 40 mil in Forbes in the 80's ) His initial investments in the Hyatt and the Trump building were down to smart planning and good luck, that fair enough. Most of the others are all real estate buy outs, mortgaged repeatedly, and invested in other businesses. Its a constant revolving door of acquire, rent increase, and dump. The majority of wealth increase has been due to the basic truth that money makes money. All of his holdings, shares and interests make money just sitting where they are.

Around 1980 when Trumps father died, 100 million dollars was worth what almost 300 million is today. Think about that. It is worth doing research into his business history, his habit of out sourcing workers, particularly in the 80's and 90's for his biggest real estate projects. There are statistics on who he hired and what he paid going all the way back to his beginning, even before the old man died. He doesn't have a track record of caring about the average anybody. As early as 2002 he applied for work visas for 1600 people. At the time he said it was because foreign workers "had a better work ethic ." The reality is they dont need to be paid overtime and they won't join unions.

I point this out mainly because I could tell that you were offended by my sarcasm, and I apologize for that. But also because your comment to me is exactly why I get upset over Trumps manipulative tactics. He is not a great business man, he really should have about twice what he does have, and most of his businesses go under or get sold just before they do. There is a reason he wont show his tax returns, and that IS the reason. The impressive wealth he has is about equal to todays value of his original inheritance. Think about that. So much of the well meaning regular guys hope placed on Trump is due to admiration for his success, it is misplaced.

Hilary Clinton is a liar, so is Trump. She's an attorney and she's self made. Both of the Clinton's are self made career people that started off with student loans, law practices and small time politics. That is closer to the American dream than Trump is by far. She's experienced and global concerns are far more important right now than anything else. The entire world market, including the U.S. economy is at stake with major power shifts beginning all over the world. Trump promising fair trade is like saying my kids lemonade stand will solve the problem if I get fired from my job. The global economy is dependent on established power structures and NATO. The destabilization process has created huge gaps that Russia and China are taking advantage of. This is out of Trumps league, it just is.

Also, a ban on immigration from Muslim countries as you mention isn't possible to enforce, Trump knows that and thats why he walked his comment back and started saying he would do ' extra vetting. ' What's going to happen is that the fear amplified by his comments will embolden people here to behave in ways that are not conducive to law and order with these immigrants, because they feel entitled to. That will create bigger problems for us here, not just the immigrants.

I understand his appeal, I know people who still want to vote for him, including one of my sons. I also want to apologize for my mocking comment about rednecks, its never okay to make sweeping generalizations about groups of people based on stereotypes or the bad behavior of small groups within the larger group. I've known some redneck types with fantastic character and great values. I've seen some hideously ignorant and violent behavior from these folks also, like all humans there's good ones and bad ones. I tend to deliberately make them sound stupid. and I'm sorry. I've already outed myself as a mean sarcasm person elsewhere here, I'm trying to be better.

So I can agree to respectfully disagree about Trump, I wont be disrespectful about it again, and please note that I don't think the Clinton's are wonderful people either.

 

[joeylittle]

he is not a great business man, he really should have about twice what he does have, and most of his businesses go under or get sold just before they do

Do you have a source for this? (Or can you point me in a general direction, I'm happy to look things up on my own). I'd find it helpful to see it substantiated in some way.

 

[sedna]

Yes.

There are a plethora of legitimate sources, feel free to find your own and compare reports.

the wire
Forbes backdated issues online
NY Times 2005 issue titled Whats He Really Worth?
death and taxes
the political wire ( in regards to the family will and nephew )
fortune

There really are endless sources for this information, and I've seen most of them before. I didnt just look into this today. The main thing I suggest noticing, is the wild fluctuations in his estimated net worth, or what he himself claims his net worth is, and how many decades that spans. Another major point that cant be ignored, is the increase in value due to nothing more than the passage of time, not business smarts. Trump sold most of the real estate he inherited from his father in 2004. The increase in value from the time Fred Trump died in 1981 to 2004 was over 200%. ( fur-man center ny housing trends )

In 2004 Trump filed for bankruptcy claiming 1.8 billion in debt. He also started the show the Apprentice in 2004.
5 years later he again filed for bankruptcy citing 50 mil in assets and 500 mil in debts.

His habit for hiring illegal workers and contractors known to outsource, so he could avoid unions and fair work conditions is most valid in older articles, going back to the 80's and 90's, involving his claims of wealth and the Art Of The Deal book and the building of his Trump Tower. I say that because everything recent is going to be a temptation for dismissal based on it being biased over his presidential run. Go back further, when that wouldn't have been a factor. Old articles from Money Magazine, Forbes, and The New Yorker are helpful. The quotes I got from him about using foreign workers because they are better was from The National Review. I left a lot out, what he actually said was that he didnt think American workers were good and that he preferred Polish workers because he liked their work ethic. He brought in 200 undocumented Polish workers to demolish the site where he wanted to build Trump Tower.

this took forever to post because I kept having to fiddle with it to get the anti sneaky u r l thing to stop preventing the post. my sources are made into just the words to make it work, i give up. But really, none of this is hard to find

 

[hodge]

Joey,. it's open knowledge that Trump has declared bankruptcy at least four or five times. You can google it.

 

[mamachick]

I am not happy about either of our candidates, but I do think Trumph is the worst possible. I fear that he is a hothead and we can't afford to have such a person as our president. I don't need to repeat all of what others have said. Many are against Clinton and call her acts criminal. I can't argue that. However, I do think she is much more composed and his temper is dangerous for our country. Just my two cents. Frankly I am just disgusted that this is the two we are faced with, the best candidates? Geez, I feel like it is a bad joke! I know many that were anti Obama and say they would vote for him if that were an option.

 

[joeylittle]

Thanks, @coco9 - I appreciate the information very much. I was aware of declaring bankruptcy, @hodge, but not nearly as well-read on his businesses being sold as they were tanking. That's the thing I'd like to learn more about.

 

[RussH]

sold as they were tanking

As he has openly stated, one of the businesses he sold was in Atlantic City, the whole city was tanking, not just his building. So for him it was a business decision to cut his loses