News Mindfulness And Cbt Just As Effective For Treating Depression As Meds

[Queen Boudica]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...-treatment-chronic-depression-antidepressants

 

[ms spock]

I have found "The Mindful Way Through Depression" audiobook - the full length on youtube so very helpful. It has helped so much.

 

[ms spock]

We are doing a Mindfulness Challenge did you see it @Lizio?

https://www.myptsd.com/threads/pote...-depression-starting-15th-of-june-2015.52657/

 

[Lucycat]

'Equally as effective' of course means the same as 'equally as ineffective'. Both groups had equal relapse rates, equal adverse events and equal number of deaths.

WE know that medication can be expensive. I wonder what the cost of therapy was and how it measures up. Just that I am sure NICE will be preferring to recommend which ever is the least-cost-to-the -NHS option, regardless of client preference.

I do believe that Mindfulness is very helpful. However I am not sure -in a crisis- how accessible it is. These inner resources tend to fly out the window in my experience.

 

[ms spock]

In The Mindful Way Through Depression - it does say not to try the whole mindfulness thing when you are in the midst of an depressive episode - it says to wait until you have recovered from this. That it is too hard to begin this work whilst in the midst of a major episode @Lucycat. So there is that to consider.

I don't believe that people could have adverse reactions such as the one that put me in hospital in 2013 from mindfulness. It was one of those very rare physical reactions. I don't think people can have the side effects from mindfulness or CBT as you can have with medications. There would also be no withdrawals either. No dangerous times in building up levels of medication or weaning off as well to a lower level.

 

[Recovery4Me]

@Lizio thank you for the link and thread.

It gives me hope that I am heading in a solid direction. Even a half of a chance to limit depression bouts through Mindfulness and CBT is a Godsend to someone whose body reacts violently to most modern medicine. I still have residual side-effects from Paxil and a long list of failed attempts. So thank you.

 

[VioletButterfly]

Stupid question here - How do you do mindfulness techniques when you are so anxiety-ridden and overwrought that you can't concentrate on reading more than 2 sentences at a time? What are my baby steps to being able to do this "mindfulness" thing? I have checked out and read many books, watched Oprah, watched Dr. Oz, etc...., but am too anxious and "crazy-minded" by anxiety to focus. Also, if it is a mind/body medication where you focus on your breath or relaxing parts of your body, my mind goes haywire. Where do I start with this? I've tried knocking back the time to 2 or 5 minutes, etc..., but I don't keep going as I don't see results. Am I just impatient or this isn't just for me and I'm frustrating myself by trying to impose this on myself as a mandate? Tks. VB

 

[Recovery4Me]

@VioletButterfly As I am ADHD, I started with walking meditation and short youtube videos of repetitive sounds of bells to help me slide back into various other types of guided meditation.

 

[joeylittle]

There's an important distinction the article is making:

Mindfulness-based cognitive therapy may be as good as pills at stopping people relapsing after recovering from major bouts of depression, according to a study.

(bold added by me for emphasis)

There is a difference between being in the center of a major depressive episode and being on the climb up out of it. The study was examining relapse rates, not initial treatment rates.

There are also some defining lines between really-really-really bad depression and a major depressive episode. This study is talking about recovery from a MDD episode.

To that point - I think the results could have easily been skewed more towards MCBT beating out the pills for moderate to severe depression, of the type often experienced by PTSD survivors who do not have depression as a comorbid diagnosis.

I don't think I'll ever be convinced that MCBT is a practical alternative to some kind of medication support to navigate the initial plunge into a major depressive episode. There's some stuff going on in there that feels harder to control with thoughts alone.

But once you are on your way up out of the quicksand, I don't know how anyone even gets away with not doing some form of DBT or CBT. Heck yeah, it's effective, whether you drop your meds or no.

 

[ms spock]

Stupid question here - How do you do mindfulness techniques when you are so anxiety-ridden and overwrought that you can't concentrate on reading more than 2 sentences at a time? What are my baby steps to being able to do this "mindfulness" thing? I have checked out and read many books, watched Oprah, watched Dr. Oz, etc...., but am too anxious and "crazy-minded" by anxiety to focus. Also, if it is a mind/body medication where you focus on your breath or relaxing parts of your body, my mind goes haywire. Where do I start with this? I've tried knocking back the time to 2 or 5 minutes, etc..., but I don't keep going as I don't see results. Am I just impatient or this isn't just for me and I'm frustrating myself by trying to impose this on myself as a mandate? Tks. VB

Your questions is in no way stupid @VioletButterfly. It is a profound question that I have asked and many people with anxiety, depression and PTSD and other conditions have asked.

What a person on the street defines as anxiety or depression is not what people on this forum are talking about. So if you are having major anxiety or major depression then give yourself a break and don't do it. It is not worth putting yourself through that much pain.

It would be good to see someone who is a professional or has practiced many years for you. I don't have any answers for you @VioletButterfly. I have a few suggestions and I can relate totally to what you are writing about. My mind is not helpful at times and is so busy. Okay honesty time - my mind is a crazy trapeze artist circus - and it has taken so much dedication and practice to get to the point that I am now. And I am still very much a beginner with a real beginner's mind.

Walking mindfulness could be good for you as suggested by @Recovery4Me. Look for stuff on youtube that you can related to - if the breathing and relaxing parts of your body make you so bad it is unbearable it is not time for you to do that in my completely novice and non expert opinion.

I would suggest keeping it to 30 seconds to a minute per session with a total attitude of compassion for your "crazy-mindedness". For the first year or two or so? I used a guided imaginary yoga nidra and listened to the voice. I don't do free range mindfulness I do it all through guided voice mindfulness. I will still space out and I will still skip bits of it but I keep going back to the audio recording and the breathing. I am still learning so much.

If your anxiety is very high I would suggest not doing it until you have discharged all the cortisol in your body - so exercise for half an hour or an hour before doing your 30 seconds or 1 minute. Do that three times a day, if you can. Write it up and tick it off.

I have found "The Mindful Way Through Depression" the 5 hours and 14 minutes audiobook of great assistance to me. I don't know if you are up to listening to it - but it goes through all of what you are talking about. It might not be helpful for you.

I so relate to the not being able to read more than 2 lines at a time. So an attitude of complete compassion for your busy mind is important.

But I am just someone on the internet who has built up a modest practice - so I really don't know your situation, and you would best to do a Mindfulness Stress Reduction Course - group work is helpful for people who dissociate and who have anxiety (unless groups are too hard for you.)

Even just slowing down for 30 seconds to 1 minute three times per day to really watch your self in this now - that will build up your practice over a year. Like noticing and being present when you eat a meal, wash some dishes, walk in the sun etc.

It is the nature of the mind to wander - I always get a smile on my face when I hear that - and you know exactly why with your description of your mind.

I have been doing a whole lot of other things to assist with this - exercise, eating well, therapy, keeping busy etc etc so I don't know what pushed me over the line - but it is doable as some members here say.

If it is not for you at this time then be really kind to your busy mind - it became that busy for a reason - to save you - it might take it time to settle and I am still challenged by the practice - by all means don't imagine I have it even moderately together - I can do it now though and it has taken a lot of effort and practice on my part.

https://www.myptsd.com/c/threads/po...-depression-starting-15th-of-june-2015.52657/ This has some resources which you might or might not find helpful.

Cheers,
ms spock

P.S The fact that you are a Alz/Dem caregiver for a narcissistic/alcoholic mother means you are not really living in a safe space - no wonder your mind is going crazy. That is immensely stressful and exhausting thing to be doing and involved in. I think you need to be safe to do mindfulness and heal in general. Not much help I am afraid.

 

[ms spock]

You highlight a very important distinction there @joeylittle, that mindfulness-based cognitive therapy may be as good as pills at stopping people relapsing after recovering from major bouts of depression, according to the study. It would be most unwise to even think that someone could or should start mindfulness whilst in the midst of a major depressive episode. Anyone who would suggest that really has no idea of what they are talking about it.

There is a difference between being in the centre of a major depressive episode and being on the climb up out of it. The study was examining relapse rates, not initial treatment rates.

I think that is important to focus on. Initial treatment with mindfulness would not work and it could be quite dangerous. Extremely dangerous for me, anyway.

There are also some defining lines between really-really-really bad depression and a major depressive episode. This study is talking about recovery from a MDD episode.

I suspect quite a few people don't understand the nuances of a MDD. It would be setting someone up for severe distress and marked failure to even suggest that mindfulness would be the way to go whilst in the midst of a MDD.

To that point - I think the results could have easily been skewed more towards MCBT beating out the pills for moderate to severe depression, of the type often experienced by PTSD survivors who do not have depression as a comorbid diagnosis.

I have depression as a comorbid diagnosis, but I still think that even in the midst of a moderate to severe depression is not the time to begin mindfulness.

Though for me there was little choice I was constantly in the midst of a MDD - but with strong medication and everything else I got there - but it was not a wise way to go now looking back on it. It cost me dearly. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. To be blunt it almost cost me my life.

I don't think I'll ever be convinced that MCBT is a practical alternative to some kind of medication support to navigate the initial plunge into a major depressive episode.

Me neither.

Personally I think any one who suggested that has actually no real understanding of depression. It would be pretty dangerous.

I know on "The Mindful Way Through Depression" they caution against doing such a thing.

But once you are on your way up out of the quicksand, I don't know how anyone even gets away with not doing some form of DBT or CBT. Heck yeah, it's effective, whether you drop your meds or no.

For me it was I just didn't get it for such a long time. It is not that I am not willing to do the work. It just didn't get in there. I wish I had gotten hold of this much sooner - doing the challenging the cognitive distortion thing.

 

[joeylittle]

I wish I had gotten hold of this much sooner - doing the challenging the cognitive distortion thing.

I think I was very, very lucky. I had my breakdown at a time and place where I had access to more good support than bad - and it was CBT/DBT and mindfulness. There are other places in the world I could have been where this would have not gone as well for me. But hey - what matters most is getting hold of it, whenever and however.