News New Term: Completed Suicide Vs. Comitted Suicide

[J'qel]

Phrasing the study as I did: "suicide and hopelessness" isn't the same as saying "suicide caused by hopelessness".

I phrased the query looking for studies on hopelessness and suicide as in whether or not there was a correlation. It was not a leading entry.

Depression isn't always a constant mood disorder. It can be something that is temporary. It can happen one day and not the next. In fact it's fairly common in an average person to have times where they are depressed. It is only a disorder when it lasts for longer than (I believe) three weeks (it may be somewhat less, I don't have the statistics in front of me).

Heightened arousal of what? All heightened arousal means is being more......? About what? In what way? There isn't only sexual arousal. Arousal is from "to arise". That's the only common language term, but it's not the only technical variation. You may as well say being intense is a sign of suicidal tendancies. Intense about what? In what way? It's a nonsense statement that couldn't get more vague if you just shortened it to "..."

I am not failing. The academic proof is there. That you refuse to read it is not my problem. I am not responsible for your actions.

Oh and they're not *my* studies-I'm not acting on any authority. If anything I'm referring it to those who have the credentials I do not. I wish I had the scientific knowledge to be published in that arena. It would certainly be helpful. Opinion matters little when there are those with degrees, tenure and specialties in the very field being discussed.

I don't count much for opinions save in op-eds. Which is why, until you mistook my statements, I haven't given a personal opinion. An opinion is : "This is dumb". Factual data is: "here is a series of studies, done in several hyperlinks and you can browse them at your leisure and determine whether the average leans towards or away from the conclusion postulated."

Saying "I'm not gonna read it because it won't say what I want it to" doesn't help your case. Nor does the fact you aren't able to differentiate between "suicide and hopelessness" versus "suicide caused by hopelessness". There *IS* a difference.

 

[Suzetig]

Phrasing the study as I did: "suicide and hopelessness" isn't the same as saying "suicide caused by hopelessness".

I phrased the query looking for studies on hopelessness and suicide as in whether or not there was a correlation. It was not a leading entry.

I didnt deny there was a correlation.

Depression isn't always a constant mood disorder. It can be something that is temporary. It can happen one day and not the next. In fact it's fairly common in an average person to have times where they are depressed. It is only a disorder when it lasts for longer than (I believe) three weeks (it may be somewhat less, I don't have the statistics in front of me).

Studies that refer to the correlation between suicide and depression will make reference to diagnosable (ie clinical) depression, rather than the colloquial use of the term to refer to feeling a bit down or low in mood.

There isn't only sexual arousal.

WTF, heightened arousal is a fairly commonly used term when referring to someone's emotional state - where did sex come into it?

Factual data is: "here is a series of studies, done in several hyperlinks and you can browse them at your leisure and determine whether the average leans towards or away from the conclusion postulated."

Where have you done this?

Saying "I'm not gonna read it because it won't say what I want it to" doesn't help your case.

Where have I done this?

 

[J'qel]

Depression as a temporary is not colloquial. A person can be verifiably and clinically depressed for a short period. That does not mean they have a depressive disorder. Intermittent depression is more common than a depressive disorder and people even get treated for it.

You didn't specify what kind of arousal, I was making sure you were aware that sexual arousal (most common use of the term in common speech of arousal) isn't the only type of arousal.

I did that when I told you how to google it.

Pardon, looking back, you are correct. You just stated: " You didn't provide data, you provided a google search with the suggestion I look at "scholarly articles", that's hardly data.
I never said I wasn't prepared to look, but to look at all the data, not just studies that "prove" your point."

Yes, I was using it to prove my point. It *is* data. Scholarly studies are designed specifically to provide data. That's their entire purpose.

The follow up about picking only one study is pointless though. You need to survey studies.

It is pleasant to see you're no longer denying the correlation, however.

 

[anthony]

i recently heard that 'completing Suicide is now the preferred way

Good thing I'm not religious nor into politically correct crap. :coffee::D

 

[StellaBlue]

This thread has been on my mind the past couple of days, so I thought I would respond.

I do think language is important - how we communicate what's going on, what the words mean, what connotations they have. For example, it was very important to me to understand the difference between being triggered and being activated (for me, the first was an event, the second was the experience).

Personally, it makes no difference to me whether it's called committed or completed. I can see arguments either way - and there is no reason folks who are in different fields looking at this complex issue can't call it different things.

But I do have a dog in this race, so wat has stuck in my head is the idea that we should use language to shame suicide.

First - suicide is already culturally shameful. Those of us who deal with suicide ideation know this - it's one of the reasons why people who are suicidal don't talk about it.

Second, it smacks of the whole concept that has been used against gays - "love the sinner, hate the sin".

Suicide is such a taboo (and as such, shameful) subject. We (and I speak only of Western culture), don't know how to deal with it.

For me - and I can only speak for myself (I work in research, but not on this topic, so we're talking an N of 1) - I was only able to find relief from my suicide ideation (and actual attempts) when I found someone who validated that these thoughts were valid. For me (again N=1), this first involved accepting that I was suffering from PTSD. That shifted my framework and I began to understand that the commonality of all of my "diagnoses" (suicidality, depression, anxiety, eating disorder, substance abuse, etc.) were symptoms of trauma.

So - for me (again N=1), I found someone (a professional) who could hear me talk about suicide (and stayed with me through 2 attempts) and steered me towards another professional who has helped me understand that, for me, suicide is a "flight" response. I suppose this implies "hopelesness", but I think it's more subtle than that. For me - when things get overwhelming (shout out to Anthony's PTSD cup theory) - my immediate response is suicide ideation. The positive news is that I now know that when my thoughts turn to suicide, my rationale brain can step in and say - hey, your cup is overflowing, time to regroup.

What I'm trying to say is...it's a complex topic. To try to say that one definition, one approach, one anything...is not helpful. To argue that shaming language is useful is not helpful. To try to find language that explain our experiences is.

 

[The Albatross]

I guess I come to my own opinion in another way... how hard the body fights to survive. And it didn't take me long with interactions with others (some of whom I provided direct after care for being unsuccessful) on a personal level to decide that my body was smarter than I was.

Totally off topic but I've been reading along on this one.

 

[J'qel]

That however, is a difference-with my proposal, it means that attempted suicide (as it's not called) becomes *less* negative, so survivors feel less shame. You can talk about initiating, without feeling like you failed at it-made an attempt and did not succeed.

Talking about a suicide death as "committed" is in referral only to those who have died.

You *should* not want to die. That's the whole point.

To initiate a sequence of events because you're in pain is a sign, to commit to it is already too late to reverse it. Thus, initiate and committed. The dead don't care what word we use, we should save the kinder words for the living.

 

[Neverthesame]

Really?

Where are you getting this idea that attempted somehow is "nicer"?
Or that it's somehow devoid of ambition?

I've got one for you.
"We decided to attempt the summit of Everest. But the weather made it too difficult to reach for this expedition."
- Think this person is any less disappointed?


Here's two.
"The firefighter attempted to extricate the victim trapped in the burning car. Unfortunately, the victim succumbed to the blaze before they could be freed."
-Think this person won't hear that victims screams, over and over for the rest of their lives? Or feel less guilty for not being able to save them?

I'm feeling inspired, here's three. It even includes suicide.
"After a several attempts to talk the barricaded individual out of the residence. The police SRT Unit was forced to enter the home to subdue the suspect, after being unable to convince the person to surrender themselves to the officer's positioned ouside.
Upon entry, police discovered the barricaded individual in their bedroom, having suffered a what is believed to be a self-inflicted gunshot wound. The individual was transported to hospital by EMS, where they were declared deceased on arrival. The suspect is known to suffer from mental illness, which investigators believe to be a factor in this incident."
- Think the police officers don't really wish they could have helped this person?
- Think the EMS personell aren't wondering how they could have done a little better, working on the person during transport?
- Think that person feels anything now that they are a cadaver?

The first example, maybe I could see that they are better off psychologically, having used "attempted" rather than "failed".
They can certainly make another attempt to reach the top of the mountain.

But the other two? Nope.

There's no fixing it. The people who they attempted to help, are dead. There's no getting it right next time. That person, that individual human. Is gone, dead, deceased, no more, pushing up daisies.
Learning what you can from it, and applying it to the next one is how you can hopefully live with it later. Nothing makes it better. No matter how you sell it.
Creative wording doesn't make the dead less so. And yes, I'm speaking about the living.

You *should* not want to die. That's the whole point.

I've been suicidal for years. I wake up with these thoughts, I go to bed with these thoughts.
I know a few things about how I feel in relation to this "desire to die".
First, most importantly. I don't want to die! Please stop assuming that I must be keen to die, I don't. I am a person, like you.
In fact, the thought of death scares me so goddamn badly I will actually cause myself a panic attack if I dwell on it too long.

There will be no "relief" in death for me.

Secondly, where are you getting this notion of the failure to kill yourself causing some kind of regret complex?

For just about anything else, I might be able to understand, but suicide? Really...?

How does someone who choses to live, regret not killing themselves?
I mean, actually read this.

How does someone who choses to live, regret not killing themselves?

This isn't an academic prize. Dying isn't an accomplishment. It just isn't.
It's like one of those, everyone gets a trophy awards. No matter how long it takes, we all die eventually. If someone really wants to go that badly, all they need do is wait. Their so called "prize" is in the mail.

Finally I just can't seem to get my head around this notion of shaming the act, but not the person.

You want to make clear that suicide is a shameful thing as an idea, yet somehow it's supposed to just be totally commendable when someone tries it?

How?

How can you call something shameful, but then expect the person to magically separate themselves from said shameful act.

It's not like an alcoholic falling off the wagon.

If you want to look at suicide as shameful fine. Someone who does it then, has committed/attempted/initiated/begun/tried/started.... whatever, a shameful act.

If this person has a persecution complex, well good luck to you convincing them their not a terrible person for trying it.

I don't think a person should feel ashamed for having these thoughts. They should not feel afraid to tell people that they are feeling this way.

Nothing makes you feel more alone than living with this in silence. This is the issue, maybe it would be appropriate to discuss the subtleties of nuace and innuendo, when it can be actually just be said plainly.

As has been said earlier, it really does seem to me as well, that you do not seem to fully understand the topic you're trying to lecture on.

There's lots of things in my life I regret
Giving up my career, abusing substances as long as I have, learning to hate myself, to stop caring about my life or what I wanted to make of it.

And of course, the big one. Failing a patient.

The regret I feel from failing to kill myself, isn't something so silly as "I can't do anything right" bloody nonsense.

I regret that I lived when someone else didn’t.
I regret having to face another day of this "life" that I don't deserve to have.
And I regret wasting another day of this short precious thing, that is life. Because when it's gone. It won't matter anymore.
I won't matter anymore.
That's terrifying.

And with that, I'm done with this thread.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Completed speaks to the ending of things. That's what has the best chance at reversing someone from attempting suicide - emphasizing that there is no coming back. There is nothing after.

Agreed! Complete means done, over, nothing more, gone, black, dark, whatever. So to say one completed something that means they finished it. It's done. Over. Nothing else. So it is a very accurate term and I agree that advising "completed" has a much more negitive tone and helps to emphasize to those that are wanting to that there is no coming back.

Per definition, comitted means to carry into action. Completed means brought to an end. Which one has the most negitive sense or tone? To end something can sound very negitve. However, to carry something into action not so much.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

To me, "completed" just has positive associations.

It's a subconscious matter, and to complete, in this day and age is definitely a positive thing

2. brought to an end

Definition of COMPLETE

That's positive? Seriously?

Suicide is all about leaving behind the pain of life. It's all about ending the pain and suffering and hopelessness.

It is? For everyone? Are you positive about that? Or was it for just you?

What about physician assisted suicide? Having a Dr help you kill yourself due to a terminal illness. I don't see how that would have anything to do with hopelessness but more about pain, physical pain and illness.

I think initiated is better than attempted

What? Seriously?

1. to cause or facilitate the beginning of : set going

Definition of INITIATED

Or to start. So what did you start the beginning of?

1. to make an effort to do

Definition of ATTEMPT

Or to try.

So you tried to kill yourself. You made an effort to kill yourself. You did not start the beginning of something. If you failed to complete suicide, that isn't the start of something. The word initiate doesn't even fit.

I studied language

:roflmao:

but we're *just* talking about the language

Then use accurate words.

Initiated doesn't fit at all, attempted does and completed means brought to an end. It is most accurate as committed means : to carry into action deliberately : perpetrate. So what did you carry into action? The most accurate would be that you brought your life to an end. Completed.

Personally, I find using the word completed makes it a thousand times easier to talk about then committed. We commit crimes. Crimes are bad. So if I attempted to commit something then that's bad and shameful and we don't talk about that.

** Head shake **

 

[Tinyflame]

Actually, a lot of suicides aren't completed because something/ someone/ the body intervenes. (I read as a little kid in the Guiness Book of World Records of a Stewardess/ Flight Attendant falling out of a plane at 32000 feet and breaking only one leg and her pelvis.)

How can you call something shameful, but then expect the person to magically separate themselves from said shameful act.. Someone who does it then, has committed/attempted/initiated/begun/tried/started.... whatever, a shameful act... If this person has a persecution complex, well good luck to you convincing them their not a terrible person for trying it.

There's lots of things in my life I regret
Giving up my career, abusing substances as long as I have, learning to hate myself, to stop caring about my life or what I wanted to make of it.,, I regret that I lived when someone else didn’t.
I regret having to face another day of this "life" that I don't deserve to have.
And I regret wasting another day of this short precious thing, that is life

Absolutely agree, totally my experience too.

 

[anonymous]

These are sad times when people get upset over something as trivial as words whilst little Palestinian kids get blown up.

In addition to that, I don't believe we truly die, only our material body is gone and our souls live on.