On convincing myself that my perpetrators are human beings

[HealingInProcess]

I agree with @Ronin and @blackemerald1. My opinion: What your abusers did to you is called murder. Soul murder.

Do not trust your abusers. It isn't about demons or anything like that. It is about PROTECTING YOURSELF from more soul murder. I hope you will find more comfort knowing also that God would want you to be happy, therefore, he wants you to be safe, protected, and loved.



^^^^This times infinity!! Forgiveness is about you. Not them. It's about putting your needs first and letting them go. It is the right/difficult path.

The idea of the devil and demons is a scapegoat for irresponsible people to put blame on something so they don't have to take responsibility for the evil they have committed. "Demon possession" has been debunked so many times. It is medieval.

Yes I agree what they did is soul murder. I think actually that's what certain people are specifically trying to do (at least the Satanists). But as to the forgiveness I agree I don't need to rush and it is about my decision and that jibes with Christianity to the extent that I am helping myself by letting it go and forgiving (without rushing to get there). I do believe that I am also supposed to forgive because I've been forgiven so that's an added thing but I don't need to rush to get there. The Lord doesn't want me to continue to expose myself to being re-victimized.

As to the "these are the times" comment yes I might have been being hyperbolic. I don't really know if these times are better or worse and it's all relative anyways (we are all living in the same time period but your life is completely different depending on where you were born).

I don't want to keep rehashing the demon thing since we have different beliefs but just as a point of clarification being possessed by a demon does not excuse your behavior. In the bible we are told that the Devil entered into Judas before he betrayed Jesus but Judas was not excused as a result. It's more like saying yes I believe demons exist but man still has free will. How it all works I don't really know. We always have the choice whether or not we do evil or not.

 

[freebird]

We always have the choice whether or not we do evil or not

Agreed.

 

[Kubash16]

I am so glad my T doesn’t encourage forgiveness of perps at all, and he’s Christian. But, he believes in free will, our perps had as much opportunity as us to not do what they did. Since they choose to do the bad things they forfeit their right at forgiveness. We actually had a long talk about this because of my mother. Because I was using the idea of forgiveness as a way to excuse her, minimize what she did, justify what she did. Because after all she’s human, all humans make mistakes, maybe she had rough things growing up too, but no. She chose what she did. They all chose what they did, knowing how evil it is. They forfeited their rights as humans to forgiveness.

 

[freebird]

Only God and Jesus can judge. We as mortal human beings cannot comprehend the complexity of another person's true heart. That is why Jesus became the savior, to pay for the sins of others. Therefore, we have the right to forgive and move on in our own free will! He took on that burden so we don't have to! We are NOT responsible for saving our abusers when they choose to like you said @Kubash16, "forfeit their rights as humans to forgiveness."

They have the right to God's forgiveness. Not ours. Only our own forgiveness in forgiving ourselves is what matters. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Mach123]

It's too complex to discuss here. (Anywhere) It has to be though and I understand that. I'd say it's individual as opposed to one size fits all. I made my peace with God about this but even trying to discuss it with other people who profess to believe is pointless. Opinions vary so widely. If I didn't think I should try and forgive because God said so? Forget it. Is it really so complicated? Maybe I just want it to look like that.
To err is human to forgive is divine and I haven't attained yet.

 

[freebird]

Maybe I just want it to look like that

Well, I think you have a point. You're right there is always a different answer for a different person.

 

[HealingInProcess]

As Mach said this issue is complex. I don't even know that we have defined "forgiveness." We might all have different answers. I agree with freebird that I am forgiving the person in Jesus' name as a representative of Christ because their crime against me was a crime against God. Now what is interesting is that I have read in terms of disputes between two Christians that if the other person repents then we should forgive them. But elsewhere Jesus says forgive them their debts. I don't know but I can say this. I feel that if the person I sinned against was a Christian and was truly remorseful then I should forgive them and be reconciled.

But now here comes another question. What is "repentance"?

The whole thing is too much for words, or better said words cannot fully capture this notion of "forgiveness" because it's done in the heart in my opinion, not in the mind.

However, I think seeing my perpetrators as human beings is different than forgiving and I believe I can see that they are and admit that they are, no matter how sick they might be - and they are sick people no doubt about it. Does their sickness (or lack of cognitive or emotional development) rob them of their fundamental humanity? That's another can of worms that can lead down some pretty slippery slopes.

 

[Freida]

I think this thread has been amazing because there are so many views to think about. :)

r. Because I was using the idea of forgiveness as a way to excuse her, minimize what she did, justify what she did. Because after all she’s human, all humans make mistakes, maybe she had rough things growing up too, but no. She chose what she did. They all chose what they did, knowing how evil it is. They forfeited their rights as humans to forgiveness.

yep -- this is where I get hung up. For me forgiveness means forgetting, minimizing, justifying. "Poor person was abused as a kid so what they do as an adult isn't their fault" type of definition. I like the idea of forfeiting by choice -- that makes it easier to see them as human.

They have the right to God's forgiveness. Not ours. Only our own forgiveness in forgiving ourselves is what matters. I hope that makes sense.

This does-- I think this is what my friend is trying to get me to see. Move the forgiveness into me instead of trying to find a way to forgive monsters. But then I turn right around and screw that concept up by reminding myself that the reason I need forgiveness in the first place is because what happened was my fault. ugh.

Now what is interesting is that I have read in terms of disputes between two Christians that if the other person repents then we should forgive them.

This. Ya. This I can't get my head around because I just don't get it. Not a slam on Christianity -- I truly don't understand this -- which makes my very patient friend bang her head on her keyboard! :laugh:

I asked her one day -- on this whole repentance thing... So if I make it to heaven there is a chance that I'm going to turn around some day and there will be my monster - just waiting for me. All because he said oh gee god, i'm sorry.

Her goal was to try to get me to understand the difference between repentance and forgiveness.
According to her...
Repentance is what the person does to take responsibility for their crimes. It's asking god for forgiveness and changing every aspect of their life in an attempt to live following the christian tenants and become a better person.

Forgiveness is what god does in response to that request.

My struggle? That means accepting he is a person/human who can be forgiven for his actions.
Which means not only did he get away with his crimes in this life, but that I have to deal with him in the next life as well. And that scares the shit out of me because it means I will never truly escape him

 

[HealingInProcess]

I think this thread has been amazing because there are so many views to think about. :)

yep -- this is where I get hung up. For me forgiveness means forgetting, minimizing, justifying. "Poor person was abused as a kid so what they do as an adult isn't their fault" type of definition. I like the idea of forfeiting by choice -- that makes it easier to see them as human.

This does-- I think this is what my friend is trying to get me to see. Move the forgiveness into me instead of trying to find a way to forgive monsters. But then I turn right around and screw that concept up by reminding myself that the reason I need forgiveness in the first place is because what happened was my fault. ugh.

This. Ya. This I can't get my head around because I just don't get it. Not a slam on Christianity -- I truly don't understand this -- which makes my very patient friend bang her head on her keyboard! :laugh:

I asked her one day -- on this whole repentance thing... So if I make it to heaven there is a chance that I'm going to turn around some day and there will be my monster - just waiting for me. All because he said oh gee god, i'm sorry.

Her goal was to try to get me to understand the difference between repentance and forgiveness.
According to her...
Repentance is what the person does to take responsibility for their crimes. It's asking god for forgiveness and changing every aspect of their life in an attempt to live following the christian tenants and become a better person.

Forgiveness is what god does in response to that request.

My struggle? That means accepting he is a person/human who can be forgiven for his actions.
Which means not only did he get away with his crimes in this life, but that I have to deal with him in the next life as well. And that scares the shit out of me because it means I will never truly escape him

Yeah I hear you on how hard it is. So far I am able to forgive those things I remember but I know there is a ton of stuff I don't remember so who knows how I will feel. Right now I'm still just trying to accept myself. A lot of stressors are also working to prevent my further healing and that's extremely frustrating.

Honestly I'm not sure what "this" is about in terms of building a narrative to bring meaning to my trauma. Is it about forgiveness, mankind's potential for evil, God's ability to forgive man for his evil? Am of it?

I just don't know. It doesn't help that this trauma affects my ability to articulate my thoughts. I want to be further ahead then this. I want to recover my memories and be healed now and I'm still working on effective coping mechanisms. They broke me Freida. They broke me and I'm furious and impotent. What a combination.

 

[Freida]

I want to be further ahead then this.

yep. me too. One of the hardest things for me to accept is that trauma recovery works on it's own timeline and don't care how much it pisses me off. I thought I would be done by now -- over, all better and back to my life. But it's not to be - at least not yet. T yammers at me that I need to think of like a badly broken leg that needs surgery --- lots of operations, lots of PT, lots of recovery before it ever works again. sigh. I try to keep that in mind.

I want to recover my memories and be healed now and I'm still working on effective coping mechanisms

ya. bout that. You brain will give you the memories when you have the coping skills to accept them. I fought the hell out of this and ended up getting some back way before I was ready and it was not pretty. So -- practice practice practice. Get those grounding skills down so that when the memories are there you are able to handle them. There is a reason your brain is hiding them right now.

They broke me Freida. They broke me and I'm furious and impotent. What a combination.

Ok -- I'm going to be a total hypocrite now and say "They didn't break you."
Hypocrite because that's what I think happened to me (they broke me)-- -but I can tell it's not what happened to you. :hug: :laugh:
So lets go with "they left me with a bit of damage" instead of broken. You have a bit of damage - but that damage didn't destroy you. It just forced you to grow in a different way. You look at life thru a trauma lens - and that's ok for now. Healing comes slowly, recovery is hard.

One of the best things my guru ever told me was
PTSD doesn't happen to the weak.
Because the weak die.
PTSD happens to those who are strong enough to survive
And who are strong enough to go on alone
You survived the trauma - you can survive the recovery.

Sometimes I think he was full of crap but.... :laugh:

As for the god thing? I'm clueless -- which is why I have a missionary on standby! :)

 

[HealingInProcess]

yep. me too. One of the hardest things for me to accept is that trauma recovery works on it's own timeline and don't care how much it pisses me off. I thought I would be done by now -- over, all better and back to my life. But it's not to be - at least not yet. T yammers at me that I need to think of like a badly broken leg that needs surgery --- lots of operations, lots of PT, lots of recovery before it ever works again. sigh. I try to keep that in mind.

ya. bout that. You brain will give you the memories when you have the coping skills to accept them. I fought the hell out of this and ended up getting some back way before I was ready and it was not pretty. So -- practice practice practice. Get those grounding skills down so that when the memories are there you are able to handle them. There is a reason your brain is hiding them right now.


Ok -- I'm going to be a total hypocrite now and say "They didn't break you."
Hypocrite because that's what I think happened to me (they broke me)-- -but I can tell it's not what happened to you. :hug::laugh:
So lets go with "they left me with a bit of damage" instead of broken. You have a bit of damage - but that damage didn't destroy you. It just forced you to grow in a different way. You look at life thru a trauma lens - and that's ok for now. Healing comes slowly, recovery is hard.

One of the best things my guru ever told me was
PTSD doesn't happen to the weak.
Because the weak die.
PTSD happens to those who are strong enough to survive
And who are strong enough to go on alone
You survived the trauma - you can survive the recovery.

Sometimes I think he was full of crap but.... :laugh:

As for the god thing? I'm clueless -- which is why I have a missionary on standby! :)

Thanks for your encouragement Freida. Yes I believe you're right when I'm ready to handle it then it will come back to me.

 

[Ronin]

who can be forgiven for his actions.

Operative word being can, I think.
Can does not mean have to, and can does not mean will, and can does not mean there is no consequence from whatever sort of justice is supposed to deal with these matters.

I want to be further ahead then this.

Yea, on another hand, there are people that do not get (in self awareness, or anything else) to the point we are at... so maybe it is accomplishments worth keeping in mind too, because they are accomplishments, not just steps on a crumbly road.