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Childhood So CSA and moral issues re reporting blahblah

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1. I didn't report, but got threatened by police that if anyone reported again I'd be charged.
2. I was a witness to a friend dying and they told me it wouldn't have happened if we hadn't been such shits
3. I reported CSA again and just shit f*cked up.
You have no idea how much this pisses me off. I hate, hate, hate it when people need help and they get blown off.

I totally get the moral thing in this. I still feel tremendously guilty for not reporting because his next victim was out there somewhere and I didn't prevent it even though blah blah shot in head risk and such.

So ya - how do you keep a person you know, from personal experience, has no issue harming kids for his own gratification? Especially when there are no kids in immediate danger right now. I know that would be a tough question to answer from my end of the phone call -- if no one is currently at risk there is nothing police can do -- even if it's good cops who want to help. And since they have already dismissed your allegations about him, then they wouldn't necessarily take your concerns about other kids seriously either.

I guess starting with -- what is it that you want to accomplish? Do you want him kept away from any children? Or just kids he knows? Pedophiles are pretty predicable that way -- they hunt in the family/social circle or they hunt in public but usually not both. Or do you want him held responsible for what he did to you? Or is this looking for a way for 8 year old chrissy to be ok with not saying anything when she saw him hurting her brother?

Those questions all have multiple different routes and endings -- and it could be you want all of them. (Which I whole hardheartedly support!). I'm not sure how the legal system works there - but if I were hearing your story here I would suggest starting with your version of Child Protective Services. That's a group that is separate from the police - they work on helping abused kids as a civil agency not a criminal one, though they can bring the police in if needed. And they can guide abused kids who are now adults. They would be the people who could give info on laws, report processes, how many years you have to report, what to do if you think a child is in danger, blah blah.

I don't envy your position. You have this horrible person that you want to protect kids from, who has already hurt you and your siblings, and who pretty much helped destroy your life and figuring out how to keep him from doing it to someone else is gonna be tough. You may not get the outcome you want -- but you will know that you tried. And that may be the most important thing.
 
@Freida I know you have knowledge of police/ emergency services and @Sideways I think you have some knowledge of legal/ lawyer stuff? (If not, feel free to ignore my questions!)

Two aspects that Chrissy and I have been discussing re this:

Who can she turn to, to safely discuss her options, without someone taking the process out of her hands and immediately passing it on to the authorities?

IMO as Chrissy is 99.9% sure there is no child in danger right now, I think that neither a therapist, a citizen's advice bureau, a CSA/ trauma advice center or a lawyer would take the process out of her hands and "immediately report it to prevent a crime".

My understanding is that Chrissy's brain is bouncing back and forth between "people will do NOTHING" and "people will do EVERYTHING".

I've been trying to convince her that there *are* safe ppl that she can talk to about this - maybe even just in a limited way at first, if that increases her sense of safety - without them screaming "ALARM ALARM" to the police straight away.

Surely it's like when we all discuss suicidalness with a pdoc... if we're just generally discussing ideation, they can't send us off to a psych inpatient thing... there's got to be a "real and credible imminent danger".

So how can Chrissy trust that a therapist, a lawyer, a CSA advice place will make that distinction and actually ADVISE her first, before running to the cops behind her back?

That's part one of my question...

The other is more for Freida specifically - Freida, to me it makes total sense that police and other emergency services are totally overwhelmed with complex cases of abuse, especially in families.

There's not really a single incident in my childhood abuse that I could've "called the cops on" that would've been identifiable as abuse to them.

And I know in many cases, where they are called, like in Chrissy's, the family just covers it up. The perp lies, the enablers lie, the cops don't stand a chance.

Freida, can you speak a bit about that in a genuine way... how difficult and frustrating that actually is?

Cos I don't see that as a failure of the police, as such.

I see that as a failure of us all AS A SOCIETY.

If we as a society wanted our police to be able to determine and stop cases of complex, chronic abuse in families, then we would give them the power to do so.

But we don't.

So the police ends up being much like the fire service... they just rush from "fire to fire" and put it out.

All they can really do is react... to the obvious stuff.

When I was younger, the fact that the police couldn't protect me from abuse was something that shocked me.

As I've come to understand it better, I don't really see the failing in the police system.

I dunno how to express that properly, but I wonder if you can say something about it that isn't just a black/ white thing of police suceeding/ police failing.

Something that gets at the subtlety of how hard and often impossible it is for the ordinary police force to stop things like complex, chronic, systematic abuse.

Something that restores a basic trust in the police, while also realising their deep, deep, deep limitations in being able to protect children from harm and many other victims from violence, trauma and abuse?
 
Can you see this as steering them in the needed (what you want them to do) direction plus them just having the badge and position to actually DO it?

<< Is where I went with the whole trust thing. Don't trust cops as a rule, detectives and negotiators file under different label in my head so no worries, ditto tactical teams & paramil cops. So trusting cops, I didn't even go there, trusting *them*.

I trust *myself* to move them where I need em & procedures working from there. So starting with me: what xactly I want them do & how do I communicate it so they do it?
 
How do I trust authorities/fix it myself?
I’d stop trying to black & white & label/overgeneralise it.

Meaning? “The Authorities” are made up of tens -if not hundreds- of thousands of people. Gather that many people together and you’re going to have the whooooooooooole wide spectrum of personalities, experience, & ability. (Both natural ability, and what they’re empowered to do.) They aren’t a single entity, even though they may all work for a single entity, or more realistically, work for several different entities.

So, rather than attempt to view them all in one sort of General way (can’t trust them, can trust them)? Try taking a step back, for a moment. If they were, ALL of them, standing in a big ole room? (Stadium). Would you get up at a podium and start telling them everything? Not likely. You’d probably seek out an individual, right? So start there. You need an individual. How would you choose them? At random? Or would there be some sort of criteria that might help you find the best indivual to help you out? Like, most of them are probably pretty decent people (ruling out assholes & idiots), and most of them would probably want to help (ruling out the burnouts and people eyeballs deep in other things), but of those only some would know how to help, and even fewer would be empowered to help. So you want someone whose damn good at what they do (specializes in what you need help with), and empowered to do so. Someone who is knowledgeable, willing, & able.

And there we’ve gone, in the space of a few seconds, from attempting to trust “the authorities” to seeking out a single highly qualified & motivated individual to -perhaps- begin to trust. As they show us that they’re trustworthy.

((Trustworthy - That doesn’t mean they’re able to guarantee a specific outcome, to the contrary, specializing means they’d know better than most that one cannot promise a specific outcome, but they’d also know the best routes, and most likely outcomes. Being trustworthy doesn’t mean they’re all powerful. It means they’re decent people, who want to help, know how to help, and able/empowered to help to the best of their ability. That’s the best one can hope for. Which is pretty durn good. But withou realistic expectations? Even the best will fall short, and feel inadequate.))

1 person. And not a random person, but a person who meets a narrow set of requirements. From thousands upon thousands to just 1.

How do we find that person? Just walking into a police station and asking to talk to someone is the random option. Already decided we don’t want a random person. So where can a person go to find assistance in finding the right person? A recommendation, from someone who knows the players involved & knows what you’re looking for, is probably your best bet. Who would know that? Your therapist may well know therapists who work with traumatized children and have a favorite cop or two. Victims groups, shelters, hospital social workers, (and many others) would also be good places to find a recommendation.

Clearly, I’m just looking at one avenue, here. Stepping back from the Generalizing & black and white thinking is one of the best ways I know how to change experience, but it’s hardly the only way. :)
 
Victims groups,
This one would be a safe bet I think.

To answer your question @Sophy - I don't know the mandatory reporting laws in the UK. Which is why a victim support service might be worth a try (although, oftentimes they don't go anywhere near reporting issues, particularly if they're crisis-based services).

When talking to a lawyer, you don't need to say anything that would, in my mind, trigger a mandatory report. You don't need to tell the CAB lawyer the name of the person, your relationship to them, or even details of what they did.

Because, all you're after at this point is information about the reporting process for historical child abuse, and the contact details of the police department that deals with that.

Seeking information about the process requires sharing remarkably little information about the details of abuse. And certainly my experience was that when I have approached people "seeking information about how to...", that's what I'm offered. Oftentimes in an incredibly compassionate way.
 
So disclaimer -- this is how it's done in the states :)
Child abuse cases are among the worst things we get - because the "proof " is so random. There is an entire division in many departments that are dedicated to child abuse and most officers can only stay there for a couple years because it is such a hard assignment - mostly because in the US the child abuse system is to fix the parent and to leave the kid there so they don't "break up the family." Those laws were made back in the day when people didn't understand abuse.

The process is usually ....
A 911 call comes in to check on a child. We ask a bunch of questions about if there is an active situation (someone beating the crap out of a kid right then) or if this is a possibility (go check on them and look for bruises). We also get calls from mandatory reporters -- teachers who see bruises, pdocs who see injuries, counselors who are told about stuff and are mandated by law to call. Lawyers have their own set of rules so we don't usually get calls from them. We also get calls from family but those can be complicated because, well, child custody fights end in lots of false reports.

An officer goes out to check. Meets the family, meets the child, asks about what is going on. It's way easier if the call comes thru 911 because everything that is said and heard is recorded. Mom says she wasn't hitting kid? We can hear it on the tape.

So if the officer sees bruises or what not, they call in child protective services and cps will decide if the child needs to be put in protective custody, but that's only during the time it takes cps to follow up. If things work well cps determines if there is abuse based on doc records and interviews with family and the child. If so, the kiddos are put into foster care and parents are sent to court and given assignments (anger management, parenting classes, what not) they have to complete before they can have child returned. Or, parent is cleared of abuse and case is closed.

That's how it is supposed to work.
The reality?
CPS is chronically underfunded and understaffed and our foster system is a mess - so there is often no place to put the kids. Unless CPS determines the kids are in immediate danger they go home with a scheduled follow up to come back to the office at a later date. So home they go, until the next 911 call.

My understanding is that Chrissy's brain is bouncing back and forth between "people will do NOTHING" and "people will do EVERYTHING".
This depends on who you get. But there has to be something to start an investigation. If its based in a thought that something might happen we usually couldn't do anything because in the states you are innocent until proven guilty. So a "possible danger" is almost impossible to respond to. We know people are dirtbags - but until they commit a crime under the law there is no reason to go. In Chrissy's case we know the man is a predator. But he's not doing it now and there is no history of him doing it then. So the questions would be .... Why do you think this? Who do you think is in danger? Unless there is a victim there can't be a crime. Which sucks.
So how can Chrissy trust that a therapist, a lawyer, a CSA advice place will make that distinction and actually ADVISE her first, before running to the cops behind her back?
The mandatory report law is pretty specific - it's about abuse that is currently happening or if someone admits they are about to abuse a child. That someone is an abuser in the past but not right now? Doesn't apply to mandatory reporting. Some states have predator laws that make CSA perps register as sex offenders - but again - that's after the crime is committed.
Freida, can you speak a bit about that in a genuine way... how difficult and frustrating that actually is?
You have no idea. 911 and the cops talk to the same kids over and over. We call CPS, we call relatives, we try everything we can to get those kids out of their homes. But because of how the laws are written it's almost impossible for us to do anything. Seriously, both 911 and patrol were on a first name basis with some of these kids because they had been called to the house so many times.

One I will never forget? I had mom on one extension and dad on the other. Standing next to each other arguing over the 18 month old. Took me a bit to figure out that they were standing next to each other and each had an arm of the baby and neither would let go. While I was talking to them they dislocated both of the kids shoulders pulling him back and forth. There are some sounds a baby should never make and believe me when I tell you I can still hear that kid screaming. Officer who responded was outraged and tried to get them charged with a crime but it was denied because "it was an accident". Couldn't even get it bumped up to detectives.

CSA and human trafficking are even worse because often the teen victims of human trafficking are put in jail because prostitution is illegal. Ya - seriously. The kid being trafficked goes to jail. And then, once they are out, they go right back to the pimp - who they believe is the only person they can trust. One of my deputies went on the offensive about that a few years ago and put together a amazing program that included counseling and victims services and was able to get the law changed to make them victims instead of suspects but that's just in my state.

I dunno how to express that properly, but I wonder if you can say something about it that isn't just a black/ white thing of police suceeding/ police failing.
Ya -- this is what is so hard because people believe that cops have way more power than they do.. Patrol responds to the house on the initial call. They write up their report and then off it goes to CPS and the prosecutor's office. That's the last contact the patrol officer has with the child unless they are called into court to testify. If abuse is suspected and it reaches the criminal level (ya, there's a thing sigh.) then it goes to the detectives. But again, they gather evidence. They don't make decisions on what happens next.

Every time a kid turned up dead or at the hospital with massive abuse injuries the community blames the officers. But it's the laws
that tie their hands. One deputy friend called me one night in tears because she had pulled a 5 year old out of a house a week earlier where she was being used in porn and she was STILL sent home because the "burden of proof" wasn't met. THEY HAD THE VIDEO!!!!! (sorry -- still upset about that one I guess)

Don't get me wrong - it doesn't always end like this. Usually it works like it should --call comes in, patrol investigates, cps investigates, detectives investigate, judge makes decision to pull kid out of the house. It's just that people don't realize how detailed the process has to be because the final result may be taking someone's kid away. They have to be sure.

For a case like Chrissy's? I'd start with a call to cps just to get it on their radar and to ask about how the process works. Those calls can be anonymous but it is helpful for them to understand where your questions are coming from. Are you speaking from experience of seeing it or are you a pissed off ex trying to get someone in trouble (happens more than you think.)

Another option is just calling your local pd and asking what child abuse laws are in your area. If they ask why tell them the truth - you believe there may be an abuse of a child in the future but have no proof so you want to understand what is going to happen if their is. They don't need to drill you for information because you are asking about how laws work - not reporting a crime.

Whew -- sorry for all the blah blah but its one of those complicated subjects!
 
I get it but I can't read all this . I sorta feel like my life is like this. We had vast involvement with the legal system about money and Id string up every other lawyer in the world if I could. Judges are just crooked ambitious lawyers. Courts judges and lawyers and so cops I guess by default because they do what's best for them.

There's always a remnant but they get lost in the struggle.

There is no actual abuse (nobody's in danger) In the last 30 years, much of which I spent heavily invested in "recovery". But if i could id move away and forget everything. I think it's just part and parcel with CSA and PTSD . Everything repeats.
 
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Yah I'll try and come up with some sensible replies. My brains still kinda post-christmas-mush but yah.
Doing what you can, means accepting potential consequences that are out of your hands, jail time being one.
Yeah, I know. I think my problem is that I'm not mad or anything. Like it's preventative, so even caring seems harsh. I don't really know what I want to happen. Like every single possibility (including doing nothing) I'm not happy with. Like so it's hard to even decide what I'm aiming for, never mind what I'm avoiding. (unless a time machine is available?)
There's an uneasiness that lives between (a) wanting to prevent anyone else living what I've lived; and (b) not needing to screw up other people's lives on my account, like siblings and spouses etc.
Yeah, I'd be f*cking over a helluva lot of people. My big bro is close to him, my mum n wee bro rely on him financially, my extended family are dependent on him. My whole family work for him.. like I'm trying to balance the shit I'm concerned about in the future with shit I gotta worry about now n I think I'm just brain dead cos my brain can't come up with *sane* pros and cons.
Like I'm kinda like "maybe he's changed because he microwaved me leftover Christmas dinner after my shift". Totes sane and rational weighing up going on over here :rolleyes:
You have no idea how much this pisses me off. I hate, hate, hate it when people need help and they get blown off.
Yeah it's okay. Like I'm good, it's just how things go? ? They have shown up n shit when they've been contacted, it's mostly been due to me that things haven't gone right.
I guess starting with -- what is it that you want to accomplish? Do you want him kept away from any children? Or just kids he knows? Pedophiles are pretty predicable that way -- they hunt in the family/social circle or they hunt in public but usually not both. Or do you want him held responsible for what he did to you? Or is this looking for a way for 8 year old chrissy to be ok with not saying anything when she saw him hurting her brother?
I want kids safe. Like they *are* currently, but I don't want it to be a constant worry. It came about cos of wee bro crap but I don't think I'd mention him cos his business really (he's 27 now so). It's not about me I don't think, it's about current kids. And the constant what-if stress.
When I was younger, the fact that the police couldn't protect me from abuse was something that shocked me.

As I've come to understand it better, I don't really see the failing in the police system.
I don't think I've ever expected to be saved or protected by the police. Like I don't feel like they fell off a pedestal in my brain. It's more of a "nobody can actually do shit" thing. Individual people who work for various law enforcement things are fine, as a system, it hasn't been helpful to me.
I trust *myself* to move them where I need em & procedures working from there. So starting with me: what xactly I want them do & how do I communicate it so they do it?
Yeah. I dunno what I want them to do, which is a problem. And I seem to have two modes which are either totally shutting down or blahblahing n neither are helpful ? I did do it "properly" last time (before I noped out) but it was through SARC (sexual assault referral centre) police, not normal police. It just kinda fell apart when they interviewed him n everyone else and he came to me like wtf.
((Trustworthy - That doesn’t mean they’re able to guarantee a specific outcome, to the contrary, specializing means they’d know better than most that one cannot promise a specific outcome, but they’d also know the best routes, and most likely outcomes. Being trustworthy doesn’t mean they’re all powerful. It means they’re decent people, who want to help, know how to help, and able/empowered to help to the best of their ability. That’s the best one can hope for. Which is pretty durn good. But withou realistic expectations? Even the best will fall short, and feel inadequate.))
Yeah. By trustworthy I mean being competent and keeping me in the loop as much as possible. I don't mean it as "able to get a specific outcome", I legit just mean "listen, don't be a dick, and tell me when shits gonna go down plz" My definition of trustworthy is pretty loose..
Clearly, I’m just looking at one avenue, here. Stepping back from the Generalizing & black and white thinking is one of the best ways I know how to change experience, but it’s hardly the only way. :)
Thanks :)
Seeking information about the process requires sharing remarkably little information about the details of abuse. And certainly my experience was that when I have approached people "seeking information about how to...", that's what I'm offered. Oftentimes in an incredibly compassionate way.
Yeah. That hasn't really been my experience. But I dunno, I don't need compassion, I just need honesty. I don't really know how it works in Scotland, cos last time I was in England. But yeah, I'll try and find somebody. Ugh sorry. I'm being so awkward ?
So the questions would be .... Why do you think this? Who do you think is in danger? Unless there is a victim there can't be a crime. Which sucks.
Yeah. I'm not really sure how id play that. Cos I'm not worried because of my own CSA, but I can't mention anyone elses crap. So I dunno, how do I keep someone safe when the shit I'm on about doesn't even sound relevant to the person I'm worried about in the future potentially. Speaking to family would be an option, technically. Social work maybe but I'm worried that'd spiral really quick. I dunno. My brain is trying to brainstorm but I'm brain dead.
I'd start with a call to cps just to get it on their radar and to ask about how the process works. Those calls can be anonymous but it is helpful for them to understand where your questions are coming from. Are you speaking from experience of seeing it or are you a pissed off ex trying to get someone in trouble (happens more than you think.)
Heh. Yeah I can imagine. I just need things straight in my brain first. Like I dunno, I think my brain has defaulted back to "it's fine. I'll work it out alone, then when I'm clear on everything I'll use whoever can get me that outcome". Only problem being I have no f*cking clue where to even start deciding on my own :shifty:
Came across Link Removed whilst looking for books on another topic x
Thanks :)
We had vast involvement with the legal system about money and Id string up every other lawyer in the world if I could. Judges are just crooked ambitious lawyers. Courts judges and lawyers and so cops I guess by default because they do what's best for them.
Yeah. I don't blame individual people for it. It's just the way things play out. Like I'm sure I'm impossible to support because I'm sceptical as f*ck which hardly makes their job easy. I think there's a lack of transparency and IME shitty communication. But meh, it's a shit system, not necessarily shit individuals.

TLDR? This is the f*cking worst reply. It's basically a million sentences like "yeah. f*cked if I know wtf imma do" "ugghhhh" and "yah.. individuals = fine, the system is broken"

I'll try again to form thoughts later. It's just pure hard trying to think when I don't actually have any anger or any feelz at all. It's just "oh shit, what if.." crap. I need my reckless 19yo self back :laugh:
 
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