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pixel
Gold Member
Thanks for sharing your experience, @Leighlee87
If you're able, could you please provide an example of this?
If you're able, could you please provide an example of this?
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Dr. Peter Levine's Theories
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I feel like taken on it's own, that does sound rather odd and crazy - but understood in the context of the theory it makes sense. I volunteer for a charity that offers support to people with anxiety, and our supervisor often talks about how anxiety is rooted in the flight or fight response (likely something that seems obvious to most people), Levine says when we become traumatised it's because we couldn't fulfil the flight or fight response successfully (for example if you're in an abusive home and can't leave, or you are held down and assaulted), so then you are left with the surge of energy needed for flight or fight, and it makes sense that if it's not been 'released' and used up, then your body is still in flight or fight mode, and your mind and nervous system are still reacting as if the trauma is present. Or in other cases, rather than going with your biological impulse, your neocortex took over and you limited yourself from acting on any impulse or became confused about which one to use, and then you 'froze', so you still have all that flight or fight energy. So basically your body tries to do what it couldn't do before, and that manifests in a variety of ways; and allowing the body to express these things discharges the flight, or fight energy. In addition, this biological drive, is more multi-faceted than just simply running, or fighting. For example, in one of my traumatic experiences, someone held my eyes open, and sometimes I notice I often move my head from side to side (like a slow shaking of the head), when I am working through traumatic material, and I wonder if it's related to that situation and wanting to move my head away...
To me, I feel like it does make logical sense that your body therefore attempts to complete the cycle. In contrast, some small things that happen to me - one that seems to occur is that I hunch my shoulders up and down, and in a forward motion (kind of embarrassing to describe this lol) - this may just appear like, oh you're just shrugging your shoulders - but it's what your body wanted to do at the time but didn't do, after a session one time, I began to relate this rigid, shoulder lurch to the impulse of pushing someone away. Also, sometimes in session, my legs and feet will jolt up and down. That's my body trying to complete the cycle I suppose, and I think it makes sense on one level, yet on another level it sounds strange! I wonder if it's because it's a very simple explanation, and we come from a society filled with elaborate, intellectually sophisticated, and in-depth theories on the mind and psyche. I wonder how would one 'prove' a theory like this? Would we not just have separate explanations for the same phenomenon?
I'm still feeling the impact of NYE, so not sure how eloquent my explanation is aha. I'm intrigued by this discussion, I have been skeptical about certain explanations of the theory, but have simultaneously found other explorations insightful and intriguing - such as his explanation of repetition compulsion.
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I feel like the fact that it works for people doesn't, or shouldn't, necessarily have 'nothing to do with the discussion', as I feel the fact that it does get results potentially provides some support for the theory...But then again, it does go back to the question, "Why does it work?", which I know is what you are trying to get at...
I know you're not discrediting anyone's experiences :), I'm just presenting a counterbalance to the discussion. It's an interesting topic, thanks for starting it :).
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- #16
pixel
Gold Member
I am really pleased to hear your views, having personally experienced it yourself. :)
I hope I'm not come across as denigrating Somatic Experiencing. I may try it one day - who knows.
I simply cannot stand ideas spouted off as fact. Especially within the mental health field, which is a relatively young branch of science and is still battling the vestiges of mythology and superstition.
The reality is, when writing a book such as Dr. Levine has done, a distinction from pseudo-science must be drawn clearly. This helps to strengthen public trust in academic discipline and mental health professions.
If questionable data is presented (or if valid scientific results are interpreted incorrectly/sensationalised), we may have people turning away from important and potentially life saving treatment methods.
Dr. Levine is doing the industry no favours by presenting poorly explained theories.
Hi Pixel,
I listened to the podcasts last night (and a couple of others from the same site as well, they're good). I'm guessing that what Levine is explaining in the bit that you quoted is how he came to the idea of somatic experiencing.
He does take a tendency to healing as almost being axiomatic, he gives examples from nature.
He had been observing wild animals, and noted that beasties like wild rabbits and small birds, have their lives threatened daily by predators, and he noted that he never seemed to see them suffer from PTSD. But, put the same sort of animals into captivity, and it was very easy to induce characteristics of trauma disorders in them.
He was observing that in the wild, the critters were able to complete an escape, and he guessed that the problem seemed to arise when the response wasn't allowed to run its full course, but got frustrated.
He gave the example that clarified that idea for him, of a woman who had very bad symptoms, having a panic attack in his office, she couldn't breathe and thought that she was going to die
He was trying to think what to do and said to her "there's a tiger chasing you, run!"
Her legs moved as though running. That worked as a sort of cathartic cure, her agroraphobia etc went away.
He'd then experimented through the 1970s with titrating the somatic stuff down to more manageable levels, rather than the cathartic and potentially re traumatizing "there's a tiger, run!" and he seems to have good success.
After listening to the podcast, I think that it's one of those areas where we know something works, but perhaps the explanation for why it does, may not be the best. And even if it is right, perhaps it isn't being explained in the best way.
That's not uncommon in other areas. There are plenty of areas where practical things have been achieved for thousands of years, but where theory has still not caught up, and decisions made on the basis of that theory may actually be harmful.
Imo, The podcasts are definitely worth listening to.
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@Leighlee87 I understand that the current DSM V does at last show catatonia as something that can be experienced in PTSD. Previously it only listed it with schizophrenia. The assumption was therefore made that if someone was experiencing catatonia, then they NECESSARILY had to have schizophrenia. Having a wrongful diagnosis of schizophrenia on your medical records could do a lot of harm, in employment, in background checks, a person's credibility in a court etc.
Talk about the landscape being made to conform to a really crappy map, the sort that says "here be monsters"
You'll find more about what you're experiencing in the paper linked here
Dissociation 6f's (drop Attacks/catatonia)
I listened to the podcasts last night (and a couple of others from the same site as well, they're good). I'm guessing that what Levine is explaining in the bit that you quoted is how he came to the idea of somatic experiencing.
He does take a tendency to healing as almost being axiomatic, he gives examples from nature.
He had been observing wild animals, and noted that beasties like wild rabbits and small birds, have their lives threatened daily by predators, and he noted that he never seemed to see them suffer from PTSD. But, put the same sort of animals into captivity, and it was very easy to induce characteristics of trauma disorders in them.
He was observing that in the wild, the critters were able to complete an escape, and he guessed that the problem seemed to arise when the response wasn't allowed to run its full course, but got frustrated.
He gave the example that clarified that idea for him, of a woman who had very bad symptoms, having a panic attack in his office, she couldn't breathe and thought that she was going to die
He was trying to think what to do and said to her "there's a tiger chasing you, run!"
Her legs moved as though running. That worked as a sort of cathartic cure, her agroraphobia etc went away.
He'd then experimented through the 1970s with titrating the somatic stuff down to more manageable levels, rather than the cathartic and potentially re traumatizing "there's a tiger, run!" and he seems to have good success.
After listening to the podcast, I think that it's one of those areas where we know something works, but perhaps the explanation for why it does, may not be the best. And even if it is right, perhaps it isn't being explained in the best way.
That's not uncommon in other areas. There are plenty of areas where practical things have been achieved for thousands of years, but where theory has still not caught up, and decisions made on the basis of that theory may actually be harmful.
Imo, The podcasts are definitely worth listening to.
______________________________________*______**___________
@Leighlee87 I understand that the current DSM V does at last show catatonia as something that can be experienced in PTSD. Previously it only listed it with schizophrenia. The assumption was therefore made that if someone was experiencing catatonia, then they NECESSARILY had to have schizophrenia. Having a wrongful diagnosis of schizophrenia on your medical records could do a lot of harm, in employment, in background checks, a person's credibility in a court etc.
Talk about the landscape being made to conform to a really crappy map, the sort that says "here be monsters"
You'll find more about what you're experiencing in the paper linked here
Dissociation 6f's (drop Attacks/catatonia)
Thanks @pixel :)! Not at all, I can understand where you are coming from. I haven't read the book you mentioned in your first post, but I did read "Healing Trauma" first, and didn't really find that it delved into the theory much - it was more like a shallow explanation of it, and I remember being quite skeptical about it. However, I did find "Waking the Tiger" to offer a more thorough explanation of his observations of animals in the wild and how this relates to human trauma. Have you read "Waking the Tiger?", I'd recommend it, even if I'm just interested to hear your thoughts :p.
I understand what you are saying about the mental health field, and how it struggles to be seen as a legitimate science. I think the issue with psychological theory, is that (beyond neurochemistry, though I think even that can be down to interpretation in terms of understanding mental health conditions), is that much theory is based on interpretation - it's hard to build concrete facts and explanations... but I agree, as much as possible, theory should be backed by studies. More studies need to be undertaken, for sure.
I think originally I only tried it because it was vetted by van der Kolk, who offered a simple breakdown of how SE works to address and heal the physiology of trauma in "The Body Keeps The Score", and I'd read some very positive testimonials on here. I ended up reading "Waking the Tiger" later - which seemed to offer a more thorough explanation of the theory, that I could more get on board with.
Thanks for this breakdown @Anarchy, this is a more eloquent explanation of the theory :), and what I was trying to express :). This is basically what he explores in "Waking the Tiger".
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pixel
Gold Member
Thank you so much @Anarchy, I really appreciate your doing that. Very kind of you :)
Yes, I agree. Just like the placebo effect :p but hey, at least it works!
I haven't. I've heard it mentioned various times on here.
The truth is, when I purchased Trauma & Memory, I had recently experienced a terrifying inability to breathe and a sense of imminent doom, when a friend who was massaging me started working on my neck. She said that I must be holding a lot of stress in my neck, however, I knew the reason was from having been strangled and threatened with death. So i went out and bought the book, along with The Body Keeps the Score.
I do believe the body remembers, and so many lovely people here have benefited from Somatic Experiencing. Hence why I felt extremely disappointed that the book focussed on vague inferences and weak theory.
Yes. This is what convinced me to make the purchase.
I trust The Body Keeps the Score shall not disappoint?
I'm sorry you had that experience, it sounds horrible >.<.
I hope it doesn't disappoint you, it's a great book.
I was going to mention the placebo thing earlier, I think if it were placebo, then it would bring some measured effects or success. But for me, this has really impacted me in ways far beyond placebo, and far beyond just healing the anxiety and PTSD alone; things I didn't even think were trauma related have been remedied. For example, I just have this sense of aliveness - spontaneity and joy, that I haven't felt in years. I feel so much more confident and strong in myself... I'm far more expressive and engaged in the social world...I don't panic or feel anxious much at all, and when I do it may last for a couple of days and then I can bring myself back down using what I have learnt in SE therapy. I sleep well, I am happy and balanced - where is it all coming from? It can't just be placebo. I've only been in sessions for a couple of months as well, not bad going - and the change is far more pronounced than what counselling ever did for me, and has taken place far quicker than CBT.
Also, have you seen this video? This guy is an army VET who went for SE, who explains how he thought it was the "dumbest thing in the world" when he first came for his sessions, yet the change in him from the first session to the last is very pronounced - the sense of calm and confidence... Somatic Experiencing® -- Ray's Story
I guess the best way is maybe just to try some techniques, "Healing Trauma" documents some of the exercises used if you did maybe wan to try some and see?
Laurie2001
Bronze Member
There was a reference to reading Pete Walker threat. He is really cool. He is a PTSD survivor and I don't think he uses clear language. I am in the mental health field and it enrages me when people envelope basic ideas in jargon and incomprehensible language, or coin their own phrases.
Pete Walker, I think is really straightforward and compassionate. He has this great article on emotional neglect and it really rang true - sort of about how underneath the physical and verbal abuse for him (all of which he experienced) it was the emotional neglect that was most damaging and how we can cope with that. I don't think anyone is perfect in this field, but I do like the guy.
Sorry if this is a little off topic from
Pete Walker, I think is really straightforward and compassionate. He has this great article on emotional neglect and it really rang true - sort of about how underneath the physical and verbal abuse for him (all of which he experienced) it was the emotional neglect that was most damaging and how we can cope with that. I don't think anyone is perfect in this field, but I do like the guy.
Sorry if this is a little off topic from
Laurie2001
Bronze Member
I made a mistake in how I replied (my technical limitations) Hi Leighlee87. I just wanted to say that I can really relate. Its not quite as intense, but I totally freeze at times in sessions and at times at home. This massive anxiety overwhelms me, I feel terrified and flooded and sort of dissociate and just freeze. Yes the freeze response explains it which is basically what one of the three things people and I guess animals do when they are terrified: fight, flight or freeze. I often have no words and am scared to move. It takes a lot of effort and is such an awful experience. I experience it a lot in the morning and need my medication to kick in before I can really do anything. I sometimes think of it as early trauma because I loose all words. My mother related a memory of terrible stuff going on in the family with her and my dad and me sitting o her lap as a baby. I asked was I crying, writhing, what and she said she just remembers me sitting there and I thought, yes, that's what it feels like. Freezing in terror and no words.
One note: scientific methods can never ever actually *prove* anything, only *support* or *disprove*. That being said, I wish Levine had more "supporting* documentation in his work.
I think he could have found studies that could have supported many pieces of his ideas; I view his books as a very large framework. His ideas would need to be broken down and loads of studies cited for many pieces, and each piece can always be argued scientifically. There are dozens of sub-specialtes involved in this stuff, neurology, many issues of biochemistry and how that affects the brain systems, genetics, evolution, and large networking issues in the brain that likely just plain aren't understood.
The scientific method isn't as good with extremely complex systems as it is with simple systems; it needs to work pieces of systems sometimes... takes a huge long time to get somewhere when it succeeds. Life is short! Many of us can't wait. So the word "pseudoscience" isn't always helpful... and my country has many folks who won't even believe the scientific consensus reached by thousands of scientists, top-level folks, on climate change.
So perhaps he just went for the whole thing, in the books, to try to pain a big picture intuitively in case it helps. His work has helped me feel less afraid of some things my brain does... And has predictive value for me, which is part of what scientific theories are supposed to be good for. Just my view on it.
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