News Us politics - read first post before comment

[SaharaSon]

And who decides who the good guys are? A lot of bad guys believe they are the good guys. By default we...

Generally speaking, children, teachers and law enforcement are the good guys. :p

 

[scout86]

I don't know that the conspiracy theorists are suggesting that no one got killed. Perhaps some are?

There's a version that says "Sandy Hook never happened".

One of the teachers is now reporting that the shooter had full body armour and a gas mask on

I could easily write that off to the unreliability of eye witness testimony, but I'd have no way know. That's something people seem to forget. That there are a lot of versions of what happened in situations like this. They can be wildly divergent and all it means is people are fallible.

but then liberals really are the driving force in shootings by making celebrities of violent criminals

I agree with a lot of what you said. I won't agree that media attention is THE driving force. I think it well might be a factor for some of the perps. I don't think much of the media intends to add to the problem. I suspect, mostly, this is something they worry about. Personally, I'm way more interested in understanding what makes this sort of notoriety appealing and how can we change that?
No, now that I think about it "the media" is a big tent. SOME of the media probably really is only interested in generating income. Some of it is actually interested in journalism.

The main thrust seems to be that crisis actors were in place ready for the event to happen, with their lines for the media well rehearsed.

To what end, though? The NATO conspiracy you mentioned makes sense. (I'm not going to get into a debate about whether or not it really happened that way.) There's an end game, a motive. It makes sense. In the case of mass shootings, I just don't see a clear end game. The "anti-gun people" just don't seem cold blooded enough, to me, to set this stuff up. Not too mention it doesn't usually get them anywhere. And the PRO-gun people don't seem to have anything to gain. From what I can see, if there's a "conspiracy" at work here, the intent is more likely to be general chaos and division than anything else. Not so much setting up events, but maximizing the divisiveness and lack of trust afterwards.
@Justmehere , I wanted to read it but it wants me to buy a subscription. :( What you quoted sounds pretty interesting.

Even with all that gone, there's nothing stopping someone from beating me to death with a stick.

True that!

What I'm about to say is not an argument for giving guns to people intent on homicide.

It's an absolute fact that the world is NOT a safe place. I've heard a fair number of people the past couple weeks speak about a "right" to be safe. That's a nice thought. But I don't see that we have any such thing. Life is a gamble. You pick up your cards and you take your chances. Righteous indignation because things are "100% safe" ......? I'm not even sure what to call that. It's fine to work towards safety and respect, and all those good things. But to expect you can guarantee it? Not this side of paradise.

 

[Friday]

Also, if you banned all firearms, knifes, chemicals that could be used to create bombs, etc it would be extremely difficult to find something to hurt multiple people with

Also fairly impossible to cook food or clean your house.

...but considering it’s pretty easy to drive into a crowd with a vehicle, that also means banning vehicles.

We fought wars that songs are still sung about with nothing but sticks and stones. It’s literally impossible to ban all things that could be used as weapons.

 

[Muttly]

The theorists do have factual events to work from. Between the late 1960s to around 1990, terrorist attacks were staged across Europe. The deaths were real, including a former Italian prime minister.
Some perpetrators (patsies) were arrested for some of the events. some didn't make it to trial, some were thrown out of upper floor windows of police stations.

In 1990, it was revealed that the terrorism had been ordered via NATO headquarters. It was to discredit parties of the left, and to open the way for draconian restrictions on freedom.

Nothing moves in NATO without agreement from officials in DC and London.

DC has had its hands dirty already. It's only right that people are vigilant and question, and keep questioning.

Ok, I appreciate this post. I have no interest in engaging in the gun debate, but the conspiracy theories make me angry. This is the first argument I've come across that has made me understand a different viewpoint; that gives me a rational take to conspiracy theories. AS far as mass shootings go, I still find that the conspiracy theories I come across don't hold up to scrutiny. Part of that is I am strong advocate of parsimony. The simplest answer is usually the correct one.

Part of why I get so angry about the conspiracy theories is my community had a mass shooting. Although, to be fair, by some definitions of mass shooting it was a bit too small. Someone I knew died. Someone I knew was shot. I didn't know either well. People I did know well, though, were close to these folks and I remember the grieving. I remember the media circus too. I can't imagine the added pain if people had started up with conspiracy theories. It would have added deeply to the pain everyone was experiencing.

 

[Deleted member 45988]

To @Justmehere: The link to the Wall Street journal article you quoted required me to subscribe or sign in to see full article, so I didn't read it.

On another note, I'm not sure how people are linking to articles or if such things require a higher standing. Even responding to posts with links gives me a message that I am violating policy or some such.

 

[Justmehere]

On another note, I'm not sure how people are linking to articles or...

Please raise all forum questions like this via a help ticket. Thanks!

 

[mamachick]

I dont pretend to have all the answers. Lets just look at some of the major suggestions. Many are wanting teachers and school personnel to be armed. These people did not sign up for this, and do not have desire or time to train in such tactics. When to armed police come charging in, what teacher wants to be the target of being in the possession of this gun? What teacher wants to attempt to stop the shooter with all these kids around and possibly shooting one of them? This really puts a target on their head.

I agree that the constitution was written before we had these assault weapons, yet it states that we have the right to defend ourselves, even against our government, so I see why these weapons need to be available. (even though I think that they are unnecessary to civilians). Even if they were made illegal, criminals would find a way to get them. My local police dept. have 2 AR-15 missing and no idea where they went. Ummm. not really good.

Some say hire retired vets to guard schools. Our teachers are on strike right now for wages well below the average. They are getting screwed financially at every turn so how do we afford guards at every school.

The cop at the Parkland shooting is being fired for being a coward....but was he really trained for this or was he just a resource officer. I don't think these school cops are really trained for these situations.

There are always going to be those who slip through, but in the Parkland shooting, the FBI had information and didn't follow through. Maybe that sounds like blame but I'm sure there are reasons there too. There were warning signs big time, but then don't we all want an answer to how this happened, which may appear to be blaming. Yet for how many years have we all taken off our shoes at the airport because 1 person attempted to get a bomb through in their shoes.

I think, regardless of our party affiliation, we need to pull together and come up with a solution to a problem that is relatively new and increasing in occurrence. I think arming school staff is the worst idea we could come up with.

 

[UnKnown-Self]

Guns purpose is to inflict great harm or kill.
Many things are used to kill but a gun is made for the purpose.
A teacher’s first instinct is to get the children to safety. Not to hunt down a shooter.
How many children will start bringing guns to school?

People keep shouting about the 2nd Amendment like it was written in stone like the Ten Commandments.
I have to wonder how many of them can name all ten?

The People of The United States collective voices are unheard because of financial power.

Our electoral system is broken and it’s endangering all of us.

 

[Justmehere]

And now the president is sticking by his statements to suspend constitutional rights without due process. Getting rid of the 2nd amendment is one thing. Now we are talking about suspending the 4th and 5th.

I don’t understand people who want to get rid of the 2nd and also believe Trump is a fascist. The 2nd is in place not for hunting, but to protect the people from a government run amuck.

 

[Deleted member 541]

I believe in the second amendment, just not assault rifles to kill. and I believe some changes need to be made to protect people. age limits and such.

As far as Trump is concerned.... His statement yesterday about taking away guns WITHOUT due process..... That was a bit scary........I just hope that congress has, and will use common sense when it comes to his statement....

 

[Deleted member 45988]

Guns purpose is to inflict great harm or kill.
Many things are used to kill but a gun is m...

But I don't think guns are the driving force, I think it's media coverage. I will explain why I am so confident of this. I think guns are part of the problem, but I also think hypocrisies and inconsistencies of people are part of the problem, especially a tendency for society to torment young men who are already socially ostracized or tormented.

I went to school in a rural, conservative area were guns were everywhere. I was very introverted and was totally fine when by myself, but other kids tended to be difficult for me. By junior high this me being myself and other people being over there started to switch to bullies doing things like knocking books out of my hands and me being forced to do things like chase a barrage of books and papers all over the strairs and gather them and then rush to catch the bus. Teachers must of been aware of this, but nobody did anything or said anything.

By the beginning of high school it got worse, there was spitballs in one class in front of the teacher, then violent slapping of my head in another class in front of the teacher, then bizarre harassment in the hallways. Everyone just seemed to pretend not to notice. Teachers became suddenly blind because it was like if they didn't suddenly develop the iq of a turnip they might actually have to put forth effort and be uncomfortable and confront jackasses who were difficult to deal with.

It's not at all like in the movies where teachers step in and girls jump to the aid of some tormented boy. I was athletic, probably relatively good looking, rather intelligent and nice to girls, etc. But all this torment and me being an anxious mess about it and not knowing how to deal with it seemed to have the sum total effect of me becoming entirely uninteresting and maybe even scary to girls and the bullies and jackasses suddenly becoming significantly more attractive to girls. In retrospect, like some monkey troop where bully harasses other monkeys to gain status and then female monkeys show more interest in higher status monkeys and lose interest in lower status monkeys. In retrospect, it was like the only way out of this absurdity where I might be treated respectfully and girls might have been okay with being seen with me would have been to be more violent to dumbasses who wouldn't leave me he hell alone.

So I was really pissed off at society, but it never once occurred to me to shoot up the place, I think mainly because it there were just no examples of others shooting up anything at the time. I think I had other things going for me and I am not antisocial so I don't think I would have shot up the place, but I think it would have at least occurred to me to shoot up the place and I might have actually considered it if the media kept talking about shooters non-stop and how easy it was to get guns non-stop.

So then I somehow become really liberal because maybe I get the idea that the real problem was this place where people were conservative and stupid and people other places maybe weren't like this. I suspect I largely got this idea from mainly liberal media talking about dumb christians and dumb conservatives and evil rural people. Anyway, I voted a straight democratic ticket the first time I could vote, it took no time at all in the voting booth.

So I go to large college in larger city and things start going better. I have a girlfriend and a social circle, etc. I like girlfriend but her black, gay best friend won't stop trying to convince me to have gay sex. I had no previous experience with gays before and little experience with blacks. He brags about converting straights and keeps sitting on my lap and telling me he'd lube up so it wouldn't hurt me etc if I allow me to butt f*ck me. This is inexplicably ignored by my girlfriend, but he tells me about how he was suicidal when younger and I guess I view him as something along the lines of some horribly ostracized person and it must of been terrible being a black gay and he is just behaving strangely because of all the hate and intolerance he suffered, which I can sort of very much relate to. And constant messages at university keep mentioning how blacks are victims and how it's extremely homophobic and hate mongering for it to even occur that gays might pursue straights. So I sort of don't think about any of this and put up with it.

Then I wake at party to girlfriends gay friend and his boyfriend sexually assaulting me. Party was still going on, so I went outside and told girl I trusted about what had just happened.

So then I go home and expect this bizarre anomaly of gays actually doing something bad to a straight to be quickly and efficiently dealt with. So I tell my girlfriend about it and she talks to her gay friend and she somehow believes him over me and becomes furious at me for cheating on her with her gay friend. So then I talk to my female best friend about it and she initially seems to be understanding, but then I later discover that she has become friends with these gays, who she previously did not know, because "they didn't do anything to her" and because she was very devoted to gay rights (she was largely raised by a lesbian because her mother was a very bad alcoholic) and she had just moved to this place that year and these were the first gays she met and she liked being friends with gay men. So then I go to party place and am somehow blamed when I try to confront gay guy and he misses when he tries to punch me and accidental hits a girl. So then I try to go to university counseling, but gay counselor I am assigned, who I have since found out is a gay rights activist, takes no apparent interest in my situation.

So then I'm really, really, really pissed off. I start having almost constant panic attacks and start to feel like I am losing touch with reality and maybe if I go outside I might go after these gays myself, and since I have extreme rage and feel like I am losing touch with reality, I become afraid to go outside.

I was far beyond angry at everyone, including society as a whole, but it still did not once occur to me to get a gun a shoot up someplace, despite coming from a place that was very firearms friendly and despite extreme rage. But I really feel like if media would have kept talking nonstop and sort of making celebrities of shooters and kept talking about how easy it is to get guns it would have definitely have occurred to me at this point. I felt like the only way I was going to get justice and be treated with respect and be attractive to females was to be violent, but I also am extremely controlled so I just fell apart rather than acted out and there was no non-stop explanation on the media about another possible solution.

So I feel like direct drive for shooters is this media frenzy to keep talking non-stop about shooters. But I think there a whole bunch of other issues that are uncomfortable, especially for liberals, where liberals, who make up majority of media keep talking endlessly about how evil and dangerous there enemies, those evil pro-gun, racist, horribly homophobic, conservatives who don't respect women are, without taking anything else into account other than blaming and accusing of the enemy

 

[Justmehere]

This isn’t in response to any post here but a response to some of the debate happening in the US. There are quite a few people calling for the end of the second amendment. That’s a good and important discussion to have. I think the purpose of the second amendment is getting overlooked. How much freedom do we want people to have or not have?

Some make the argument that if we get rid of the second amendment, we will be risking all the others. I’m not entirely sure how much I agree or not, but I think it’s a viewpoint worth discussing. I think maybe the second amendment could be amended to have greater scrutiny, with proper due process, prior to purchase. Maybe.

When people talk about assault weapon bans, then I think we need to discuss if we want to keep the ability of the people to less-than-peacefully resist their government or not.

Countries that move from democracies to dictatorships have usually ended the right and ability of the people to own guns or otherwise resist the government before doing so.

How the Nazis used Gun Control

In 1933, the ultimate extremist group, led by Adolf Hitler, seized power and used the records to identify, disarm, and attack political opponents and Jews. Constitutional rights were suspended, and mass searches for and seizures of guns and dissident publications ensued.

I do NOT think the US is going the way of Nazi Germany. That being said, every time the US has suspended or reduced constitutional rights, the US government has done terrible things it has come to regret. Trail of Tears, Japanese internment camps, etc.

I believe this lesson of history should be kept in mind when pursuing reasonable gun control to try to prevent what happened in Parkland, FL.