Rant on diagnosing others

[ILoveLife]

We're trying to define that sickness.

Who? If it's not defined yet, where will we go with it here?

It's not normal, so what is it?

Normal is fairly relative. Watched the news yesterday, that's not my normal, but it can be someone else's.

"Sick" isn't a satisfactory definition.

Right now, it is.

Look, I understand it's better in your head if you can label it and tell yourself (and us, apparently) that that's what they are and that's final for you, and it explains all of their behaviors and acts. But maybe, just maybe, there's more to people than a checklist of symptoms.

 

[blackemerald1]

They don't have to justify to you, to prove they have a right to use that term, in my opinion.

Why the knee jerk reaction about other people's business? What does it even have to do with you? Surely something to research and examine for yourself.

Err.. are you asking/telling me or the OP or everyone? :)

 

[mumstheword]

Err.. are you asking/telling me or the OP or everyone? :)

Pretty much, just a response to the OP.

Sorry, I had a knee jerk response to the OP and her judgey attitude and I guess, those that indulge in that sort of self righteousness.

It seems silly to me, to give SO MUCH power and authority to those that sit in a chair and pass out diagnosises, as if they can't be wrong, sometimes coming to a conclusion after a half hour consultation, and yet those of us that live with these abusive, selfish, immoral, dishonest and callous people for years and years on end, and after researching, because WTF???!!!!!, when your head is done in, and you've been gaslit so much, you want to know, what kind of people treats other people like that? And eventually you get answers, narcissistic people, that's what, and you can't even call it, on a forum devoted to people who've been badly damaged by other people, without being judged harshly, for calling the abuse types, by their clinically defined personality type????

I mean, I've been misdiagnosed, wrongly diagnosed and not diagnosed when I should have been, by that many doctors and pdocs, it's not as if they are gods and get everything right themselves, so why do we give them SO MUCH POWER and authority over the rest of us?

I KNOW narcissistic abuse, no one can tell me I don't, I went through it for more years than ANY psychiatrist would have, so, yeah, I'm an expert in it. It's not something you can know about, if you haven't, at least been exposed to it, for a reasonable length of time, nor is it something you can get your head around without reading up on it, same with psychopathy.

It involves HIGH LEVEL manipulation, lies, it is COVERT abuse, so that's why most psychiatrists and many psychologists and most people don't understand it and may pass judgement on people that call it. It's a VERY lonely world, because these perps and peeps are SO GOOD at fooling people, appearing WONDERFUL and REPUTABLE and framing those they target to make us look like the crazy, not-to-be-believed ones. So this thread is really just devoted to more of the same. Invalidating the victims and their experience, as if "it couldn't be that bad".

Why?

Because there isn't, necessarily, any bruises? Because it sent you bat shit crazy (or at least you thought you were) and made you want to die? Because the narc person goes around telling everyone blatantly and subtlety, how crazy you are? Or that YOU are a psychopath? And they can look anyone in the eyes and LIE like most people would NEVER be able to?

No, sorry, people who haven't experienced narcissistic abuse and still think they know enough to pass judgement on others who have, I DON'T believe you know what you are talking about. All opinons are not of equal value. INFORMED opinions hold far more sway, in my opinion, and sometimes a degree in medicine means nothing at all, because this stuff is COVERT and sneaky.

 

[Ronin]

to the OP and her judgey attitude

She asked a community of people with mental health disorder to stop judging another community of people with a different mental health disorder.... That is the opposite of judgey.

That is caring about a non judgmental and fair environment.

SO MUCH power and authority to those that sit in a chair and pass out diagnosises

How is what someone does as a work or a life time of very earned credentials a power and authority issue?

And I mean, what kind of authority are we talking here?
I am trying very, very hard to not imagine a terrifying commando armed with three or four editions of diagnostic manual hunting people down and torching their houses and whole hoods.... but kind of failing.

So, seriously, what is the power, authority, dangers, etc, here? Realistically.

It involves HIGH LEVEL manipulation

What is that high level manipulation / master manipulation we are talking of here?
I mean: Mechanics, types, and so on, that makes it be any different from all (very similar) types of manipulation, in (rather ordinary) settings.

Because I am not seeing those Super charming manipulators (as God ordained them, probably.).
Manipulation is spottable / dealable with / defendable against... not something charming and god like and specific to a few gifted personality disordered fellas.

Invalidating the victims

Nope.

Being factual? Is fairly helpful in dealing with trauma and exactly the thing people be all against, being manipulated. Harder to manipulate people whose picture of the world checks with reality and actual figures of any given thing.

And they can look anyone in the eyes and LIE

A lot of people lie, for many reasons. That is not specific to any sort of abuse.
Never be able to? Which people?
Because lies of various types are so super common.
And in some corners?
Are what good manners are. :) (I could totally argue that politeness / decency / and all?
Involves lies. Just of a different type / in different situations / aimed to make people feel better about themselves or forgive each other, instead of else.
Those, too, are lies.)

sorry, people who haven't experienced narcissistic abuse

That is assuming too much, again.

Everybody who is against X thing has no experience with it what so ever. Gasp.
Maybe people do. Maybe people do way much (with diagnosed disorders, not just their idea of those) ... and that is why they are against the conflation of facts, lived may be mostly factual anecdata, and just personal biases that are neither factual, nor close.

 

[Whirlwind]

It drives me nuts!

I use the term with modest certainty. In the end it doesn't matter what he was but it cast a level of severity on my situation and that was important.

However I know what you mean about the term being overused. I have mixed feelings on this, on one hand abused folks are notorious for underestimating their abusive situation so perhaps using a harsh term is a bit of a wake up call? It was for me. I was minimizing his strange behaviors and when the docs started using the term it terrified me but it also motivated me.

In some cases I think it is part of the process of recognizing how abusive the situation is...so in that case if calling all abusive an "Narc" gets the partner to wake up and flee, I say apply the term liberally.

However, I have experienced the use of N etc applied to person who was (just) a crappy partner. I think that is a way to side step personal responsibility, and for a short time maybe it is ok just to vent some pain. But I have experienced online and in person groups who seem to become almost "Narc Clubs" and revolves around applying the term to lots of people in their lives and "whose is worse".

Ugh, that is not a game I want to win.

And I don't want to spend my life on what happened, it was important to do so while I was getting free. Now I want that energy focused on my new life. Now it is on me which is admittedly scary sometimes :-)

I have to wonder how many abusers ARE narcissists

No kidding. More on this below....

I think I read somewhere that narc's and psychopath mhd were statistically rare. (no source). Is this because they are not diagnosed - good at hiding or locked up before diagnosis??

I think they are but I do wonder anymore if that number isn't higher. I go to these support groups over the last years and I run into stories that give me chills in the sense of some behaviors described are oddly specific.

I ended up with a specialist therapy "group" who was headed by an expert that specialized in abuse & personality disordered.

Simply put he told me these folks are very rare, he saw a handful like him in 30 yrs. He also said they are notoriously not diagnosed as they are not criminals so they don't get locked up etc. He said they are mostly probably seen by lawyers in divorce court, a bit of a joke but not really. So he says they are rare but again, he sees ones that come to HIM. Interestingly as a professional he did say that when he runs into one, they have certain particularities that are evident in a fairly short time.

He also said Narc vs Psychopath is not a clear line...it is a spectrum of behaviors/beliefs and diagnosis is based on the general cluster so to speak.

Abusive folks are a very tough nut to crack and to this day he cannot point to specific characteristics that make a person more amenable to change. Most don't. But one thing he was firm was that if they do have a personality disorder like N or P they will not get better for a myriad of reasons.

I KNOW narcissistic abuse, no one can tell me I don't,

I know, it is beyond bad. I hope yours is past tense.

But in the big picture I think this post and all of the discussions are a great thing, the reality abuse, perpetrator's....PREDATORS are being talked about. There is some incredibly good information out there and I think it can save folks, to be honest back when I met my husband, I didn't even know the terms or the signs. If I had? Who knows. I do know it wouldn't have hurt.

Interesting topic, thanks.

Whirlwind

 

[Whirlwind]

Because I am not seeing those Super charming manipulators (as God ordained them, probably.).

Manipulation is spottable / dealable with / defendable against... not something charming and god like and specific to a few gifted personality disordered fellas.

They are just people. They are not superhuman. BUT.

Everyone has manipulated but there are levels. No one expects a loved one to purposely plan their demise/mental/physical injury. Mine planned some events years in advance. His personality changed in some areas 180 degrees after we married. Like he was literally not the same person. He pretended for years while we dated.

That is extreme.

Spottable? Yes, after years of close contact and piecing together a secret life and hidden events spanning decades. A family member that finally broke silence and shared, etc.

Dealable and defendable? Yes, once you figure it out. And then the only defense is to leave and you likely have big hurdles at that point. Many of those hurdles long set in place by the abuser.

So, seriously, what is the power, authority, dangers, etc, here? Realistically.

I can see many of the points folks are trying to make here but from a former victim's standpoint there is a tendency not to believe victims.
I have been at fault of this myself. I remember as a young person wondering why an abused person just didn't leave...ugh. I answer that question very differently today.

Realistically? I have an example. My initial therapist didn't believe me. He thought my perceptions of events were colored by my flashbacks.

Years later after a series of events and meeting my ex, this same therapist was the first not to mince words and tell me to run. He and I parted on good terms, it was not his intention and he stood up for me later when I needed him. He made a mistake, it was not his intent nor is my life his responsibility.

So I imagine I am not the only one who has felt gaslighted or let down by professionals, even if unintentionally.

More of my pennies to the discussion. Take care.

Whirlwind

 

[blackemerald1]

but from a former victim's standpoint there is a tendency not to believe victims.

But that's not what this thread is about. At least I hope not.

Abusers, psychopaths, narcissists are all out there and all wreck lives. No argument from me on that.

Victims of any type of crime, abuse etc., usually have an uphill battle on many fronts but that is a societal problem and where do we start on that? A whole new thread please...?

I responded by saying the only one who can make a diagnosis is a psychiatrist or psychologist, with the education and training and exposure to the person to make a clear diagnosis. I then became a victim blamer.

The OP has expressed dismay (and I agree with her) that we all need to be really careful with labeling and particularly using formal diagnostic mental health conditions as descriptors.

She was called a narcissist for pointing this out, and I think that too is a problem. Was this because that group of people are used to using diagnosis with such wild abandon that anyone who even disagrees with them deserves to be called a narcissist? :hilarious:

I really don't think any lay person has the right to diagnose someone else with a personality disorder.

I agree. I'm not qualified and regardless of a lay persons lived experience they are not qualified to make that diagnosis.

Anyway how does it further their healing, resolve their problems etc?

It's a diagnosis that may help with treatment for the sufferer or even the person who is sentencing but otherwise how is it so helpful?
I would definitely understand a victims meaning if they used descriptive language... manipulative, exploitative etc...

Simply saying 'My husband/abuser/SO etc was a psychopath or narcissist' informs me nothing about the behaviour.. apart from my own personal and inevitably biased opinion on what a P or a N might behave like.

This is what bugs me with people who use ptsd as the new buz word too. If I said, 'Oh I nearly got ptsd yesterday when xyz happened' - How would you or anyone who is diagnosed with ptsd feel? It definitely diminishes the diagnosis, popularizing a word into 'on trend' language generally diminishes it's true meaning. Apart from being completely wrong!

With respect to those who have been victims of diagnosed N or P... How many people that use these diagnostic terms have any idea what they truly mean? Considering how rare P and N disorders are, probably not many?

 

[Dana1010]

In fact, I’ve met someone who had been clinically diagnosed (by a psychiatrist, rather than someone with access to google and a very strong opinion) with NPD and he didn’t have an abusive bone in his body.

I'm sorry, but you didn't know this person long enough to make any final statements about him. You can know a narc or path all your life without figuring out what they are.

If you met my mother you would find her a quiet, humble, somewhat mousy woman "without an abusive bone in her body." Meanwhile, she was making choices that did massive damage to her children -- all to maintain a steady supply of victim-losers to feel better than and get a sadistic hit off of.

Of course, there were always "reasons" for why she made these insane choices.

Manipulation is spottable

LOL

You just laid your cards on the table, man.

Nobody gets it until they've been burned.

 

[DharmaGirl]

Here is the DSM V criteria:
https://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/courses/materials/Narc.Pers.DSM.pdf
It doesn't say abusive anywhere.

The criteria for the DSM V is on the right. There was a discussion to throw out NPD as a personality disorder but they left it in. I found numerous youtube videos and blogs describing what the author thought was NPD, but they described their perception of what NPD is. They had no qualifications to speak on this. You would think the world is crawling with evil, abusive, horrific people if you read and watch all this unsubstantiated verbage.

"Sick" isn't a satisfactory definition.

Hmm, yes, it is. Abusive is also fine. Everyone here, including myself has suffered trauma that led to PTSD. We know what trauma is. I was raised with a schizo-affective brother who beat me every day. Was he a narcissist? No, he was horribly abusive, but that doesn't make one a narcissist.

But I have a problem with them because of the things they’ve done, not the illnesses they may or may not have

This is what I mean. You don't have to make up a mental illness for abusive people.

Why the knee jerk reaction about other people's business?

It's a rant. I said that twice. It's not a knee-jerk reaction. What caused you to believe it was? I've been thinking about this for years, really. How is that knee-jerk? When other people put their business on a forum, it is no longer their business.

I think the bottom line is that calling your abuser a narcissist makes it seem worse. It's not worse, but you assume other people know how bad your abuse was, and what kind. Gaslighting is not on the DSM for NPD. You may have been gaslighted, I have, but again, it is gaslighting, not NPD.

Why not just say abusive?

 

[Kubash16]

This thread has been super interesting to watch. I’m torn on how I feel about this so I’m not going to take any sides per se.

I just want to throw a couple things out there into the mix. I don’t personally know anyone who has been officially diagnosed with being either a narcissist or psychopath, so I may have a skewed view. I do however know plenty of abusers.

I have an issue with a statement posted earlier (can’t remember now who said it) but the statement was essentially anyone who is a psychopath or narcissist is inherently bad. I have a real issue with such a broad generalization because I think we all have a strong amount of free will regardless of our diagnoses. I don’t think someone who has those traits absolutely has to be and stay “bad”. Reminds me of the people who think we should exterminate those deemed not viable enough to be productive in society.

I taught preschool at one point. I don’t know if this particular kid will be diagnosed with anything later on, but he made an impression on me. He didn’t act like my other students. He had zero empathy, other people and their feelings and such just didn’t click with him. Because of this some of his behaviors were to be corrected. But I can’t bring my head around to he was “bad”. He was teachable, he just didn’t have/show/understand emotions the way the others did.

Anyway, I don’t know if any of my abusers would fall into those categories but it’s not for me to decide. I have the free will to let PTSD take me over and stay in bed 24/7 or I can do what I can to get help. They have as much free will.

 

[Dana1010]

I was raised with a schizo-affective brother who beat me every day. Was he a narcissist?

No. He was schizo-affective. That was the culprit for his abnormal, abusive behavior. It's far more accurate than "sick."

I don’t think someone who has those traits absolutely has to be and stay “bad”. Reminds me of the people who think we should exterminate those deemed not viable enough to be productive in society.

You need to try to put your emotions aside. Your mind is really your brain. You don't have a mind that thinks independently of your brain. Brains are physical organs. No two are identical. Some of them -- like the brains of narcs and paths -- plain suck.

 

[DharmaGirl]

@Dana1010, it's more accurate because it was diagnosed by psychiatrists many times. I didn't make it up, or decide that's what he had. That's the difference. That's what I'm talking about. People are free to post online their opinion of what NPD is and what they believe was done to them. Even though a lot of this involved mind reading to know the other person's intent. That doesn't make it true. That's the problem with the internet, you have to be able to discern reliable sites from sites that have little in the way of facts.

What is your definition of a narc?