General Out Of Desperation....

[complexmind]

Hi all.... this is my first post. I found the forums today out of desperation mostly. We were best friends for soooo long. Now we struggle to keep our marriage alive at all. Today was one of those days I just couldn't keep it in. I told my wife that while I could understand WHY when the PTSD manifested itself, she only avoided me BUT that it was so incredibly painful. She said that when I tell her I want to be closer to her (not sex) and to feel more wanted it makes her feel the need to punish or hurt herself or sometimes she fights thoughts of ending it all. I think I know why this happens but how are we as carers supposed to navigate this minefield, maintain some sort of relational stability and our own sanity and do it with very little if any of our own needs being cared for?

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[ladyturtle5366]

I would like guidance with this as well. I have recently gotten my own counselor (my husband's counselor's best friend) who is well versed in PTSD and will be seeing him on Tuesday. I'm pretty sure I'm beginning to fall into "Secondary PTSD" status. My own previous history with depression probably makes it worse.....

Anyway, I feel very very alone right now and I've told my husband that. I get pretty much no response, or backlash and made to feel guilty for even mentioning my own feelings when his are clearly worse.....

How do you deal with it? How do you live such a lonely life attached to someone?

 

[amethist]

Hi Ladyturtle

I have just gone back and read your previous posts, to get a bit more back ground on your own story. As I am not either how much you have read on the forum so far, I am going to suggest you read the Stress Cup explanation.

[DLMURL]http://www.ptsdforum.org/c/threads/the-ptsd-cup-explanation.13737/#post-173960[/DLMURL]

Knowing you have depression issues form your own past history, then you will have to stand back from him and look after your own needs before his.

If your sufferer is struggling with his own mind and what is going on with how PTSD effects him, there is little possibility of him being able to support you. You will have to learn to care better for your own needs, as soon as possible.

Almost 4 years down the road with PTSD, my husband still cannot support me very well at all if something major crops up with my own health.

Remember this is not about you, it is about how the PTSD effects him. But this does not give him any excuse to disrespect you at all.

You may not think that this is how it should be, your probably right, but unfortunately this is exactly how it is, for most relationships with PTSD in the mix.

Take care and try and put your own needs first for now.

Amethist

 

[Angus McGee]

complexmind, know that you are not alone. The symptoms your wife is displaying are identical to the ones mine are. She has been in the "shut down" state since November. The main thing she has wanted this whole time is space, and to be isolated. My wife has gotten her own apartment and is moving out this week. She assures me that our marriage is not over, and she is only doing this so she can focus on her healing, and come home.

 

[Kintsugi]

Since this is an old thread from CM, I will address Lady, since I think she is the one who revived this thread. If you're annoyed that I hijacked your thread, CM, please tell me so!

Lady, I am concerned that you feel you may be developing secondary PTSD, since secondary PTSD implies that someone with PTSD is abusing you in a way that is traumatic and PTSD-inducing. If this is the case, I strongly suggest that you find help for yourself before your partner.

Here is an extensive thread about Secondary PTSD, replied to several times by our guru, Anthony.

[DLMURL]http://www.ptsdforum.org/c/threads/secondary-ptsd.17040/[/DLMURL]

If by secondary PTSD you mean that his symptoms (abusing you is not a symptom, even if it is a possible result of PTSD. I mean symptoms like isolation, angry bursts that are non-violent, depression, etc.) are affecting you in a serious way, then self-care, self-care, self-care. It is common, at least from my experience and from what I've read on here, for sufferers to push a lot of their issues onto those closest to them, sometimes self-destructively (saying things to make you leave the sufferer even when the sufferer doesn't want you to leave and is just testing for abandonment). The only way that you will be able to help your partner is if you are healthy first and foremost. It is fantastic that you have sought out professional help. Great first step!

I can understand the guilt you may undergo in speaking your feelings in the face of his, but remember that your feelings are just as valid as his, even if you did not undergo some kind of catastrophic trauma. Feelings are feelings, and they need to be mutually respected. Just because you are feeling bad does not mean that you're ignoring his suffering. He should not ignore yours because he is also in a rut. Our issues and feelings are our own and no one else's. No one can change our feelings but ourselves, and no one can tell us how to feel or what to feel. It's a personal thing, and you two are companions, not competitors. Working through both of your issues is something that you can help one another with. Shutting one or the other down is not productive for anybody. Perhaps you could express this to him in a more helpful way than I just did (if you agree with me). :confused:

There are lots of articles and threads around here to help supporters navigate the rocky terrain that is PTSD. Good luck and all the best.

 

[Angus McGee]

for sufferers to push a lot of their issues onto those closest to them, sometimes self-destructively (saying things to make you leave the sufferer even when the sufferer doesn't want you to leave and is just testing for abandonment).

Wow. Isn't that interesting.

Although, as I mentioned above, my wife tells me that her moving out is only temporary, she is going out and buying new furniture, TV, bedroom set, etc. So, my thinking is... if this is only temporary, why is she spending all this money to buy all this new stuff for only ~6 months?

She told me again (for the umpteenth time) that I deserve better than her. She rattled off several women in the church who have attributes she feels I deserve to have in a wife. "None of which I have."

Your quote about saying things (I'll add "doing things") to make me want to leave hit the nail on the head.

The PTSD has so screwed up her head, that she can only think in the now, and not long-term about moving home again which is the hope/thought I cling to.

So, I guess if/when the day comes when she does come home, we'll have a big yard sale, and sell off all the stuff she's aquired.

Again, I say, "Wow".

 

[Kintsugi]

Dear Angus, I'm sorry that you are suffering from this. Something that helps me when I am doing/saying things to make someone leave me is when they sort of sit me down and say, "I want you to respect that being with you is my decision, one that I have made and no one else. It is your decision to be with me. I have made the decision that I want to be with you, and I own that decision." Somehow I get real screwed up in my head and it's like I think some kind of invisible force has FORCED people into being stuck with me, and really they just want to leave. But when people say the above to me, I realize that it is me who is trying to make decisions and judgement calls for others, and that is disrespectful and condescending... and silly.

I know that things are a little precarious right now with you and your wife because of treatment. The space may help her wake up in the end from the nightmare of her symptoms, one of which may be isolation/self-destructing a good relationship.

 

[Angus McGee]

MissAntiSunshine, I so hope you're right.

I haven't said those words exactly the same way to her, but essentially, I did.

She's wanted space, she's got it. I'm not going to push her into getting the treatment she's promised to get. I'm not going to ask how it's going when she does start it.

I bought her a book the other day about learning to trust after childhood sexual abuse, and I even told her I wasn't going to push her into reading it.

Of course, I'd love to hear how all of those things are going, but she feels the act of asking about them is me pushing her into doing them, or pushing to have things work out the way I want, instead of the way she needs.

Last night, she told me that she doesn't have a key for me for her new apartment. As I walked into my bedroom, I thought to myself "As if she hasn't hurt me enough, she goes and pulls something like that." Of course, I can't express how I feel about it to her, even through a logical argument like "I'm going to be dropping our son off early in the morning" because then I'm adding guilt on top of everything else she's going through.

As is the case most often these days, I just have to swallow my feelings and get over it. Again, what you said a few posts ago about saying things to drive carers away hits home.

 

[Kintsugi]

Have you thought about how you are going to negotiate her return?

I feel like "leaving" for a sufferer is allowable in some relationships, committed ones like you have, and particularly under these conditions (she is supposed to be getting treatment). But have you figured out where the line is for you? And have you thought about how to draw that line for her when she's ready to accept it?

I'm going to be drawing the line for myself in my relationship, because I've decided that taking off is totally irresponsible, selfish, ridiculous (because I will obviously come back, and that's obvious even to me as I walk out), and self-destructive. When my fiance comes home, I intend to make a promise that I'm not going to pull that anymore.

But I think it is fair for carers to draw the line when it seems like the "right" moment. You know, "I respect that you need space, and I am willing to give you the space you need, but I will not tolerate X, Y, Z abandoning behavior in the future because of a, b, and c reasons (which should be mutually beneficial)." Something like that. I'm sorry if my Ad Lib suggestions are confusing.

 

[jenkins123]

I hope I don't continue pushing this thread away from the original idea, but as someone who was briefly dating a sufferer, I find this conversation about the things sufferers actually say to actively push their SO away interesting too. It seems such a tricky issue for any new partners to gain clarity of and know how to deal with. For example in a new relationship, how can you identify if the sufferer is indeed pushing you away because of unmanaged ptsd issues, or when they are just not so into the relationship? I notice this theme seems to come up a lot here, and some (me included in the past) may want to think it's ptsd related over genuine interest, as it can be hard to ask outright, and even if you do, it seems to me you may still get the "ptsd influenced" answer from them.

In a non ptsd world, someone saying things like "find someone else....move on.....I've moved on......" would often mean "I'm just not into you", yet all of these phrases (some of which my ex used even) can be just the "test"/unmanaged ptsd mentioned above. Stepping back and giving space seems to be the right answer, as these phrases are all used when the sufferer really wants to say "I need space" but perhaps has not yet managed things to the point of communicating that well/clearly. While they must take the therapy journey so that they can indeed communciate this stuff better to their partner, and not expect their partner to be a mind reader or interpreter, how can the newer partners ascertain these messages better? Stepping back seems right but doing so could also be percieved by the sufferer as "yep, they abandoned me as I thought they might", i.e. reinforcing their assumption of being worthless etc. I quite like the idea of Missantisunshine, when faced with a sufferer saying some kind of pushing away message, rather than clearly asking for space, to say something along the lines of "It's my choice and decision to be with you. If however you don't wish to be with me, I accept your choice too, but please understand that I am happy with my own decision. If you would just like some space, we can do that too". Thoughts?

 

[Angus McGee]

Have you thought about how you are going to negotiate her return?

I've given it a little thought, but not too much. We've agreed to sit down and discuss it when her lease is up in December.

I'm just trying to get through the next few days.

 

[Angus McGee]

"It's my choice and decision to be with you. If however you don't wish to be with me, I accept your choice too, but please understand that I am happy with my own decision. If you would just like some space, we can do that too". Thoughts?

In a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, the "I need space" may very well be the other person looking for a graceful exit. PTSD or not. However, once the wedding rings go on, it's a whole new ballgame, at least to me. We made promises to each other, for better or worse. These days, suffering from PTSD would definitely be considered a "worse". She has given me the green light to find someone new, and I think that that act, is a combination selfless, loving and as discussed in this thread "testing" one.

My wife and I have had the discussion where the words you wrote were spoken. She does know that it is my choice to be with her. She has told me point blank that she does not want a divorce. However, she would completely understand if I did, and would grant me one in a heartbeat if that's what I wanted. She knows that that is not a consideration from me either. So, it seems she either conciously or unconciously ups the ante. She pushes a little harder "testing" me, to see my reaction. Do I run, or do I grit my teeth, and hang on?

For as hard at is it some days, I'm hanging on in the hopes that someday she will come back to me, both physically and emotionally. I know some on this board may call me foolish for this, but just like I've told my wife. It's my choice. I know in my heart it's the right thing to do, even if it's not easy.

I've drilled a phrase into my daughter's head ever since she was little. She knows it by heart now. "Nothing worthwhile in life is easy." She sees how much this situation hurts me. However, she also sees me walking the walk, not just talking the talk.