Relationship With Beloved Child Who Condones Abuser

[The Albatross]

Wow Gloria, that sounds like a plan. And this isn't the first time I wish I had your T. :tup:

 

[Gloria]

My therapist is a huge blessing. She really couldn't manage the two of us (my son and I) yelling at each other. My son said she hardly said two words. Poor woman didn't get a chance because we were screaming at each other - but not yesterday. I just say there and stared at the wall and listened to my son talk about how he was being abused.

Anyway, my training at GWU has helped me in life. It helped me learn how to process information in a rational way. I know I am going to resolve this and the words of wisdom from this forum is making it possible and I only hope that I can help others to navigate through these troubled times.

Hugs,
Gloria

 

[mamachick]

Gloria I want to thank you for creating this topic, you are right that the abuse continues from our children, and needs to stop. It is painful and has reminded me of so much that I stuff, but it is in a good way. I have felt alone and minimized some behaviors for too long. You are very wise and capable of making the right choice for you. Hugs

 

[Nicolette]

Gloria there is a very interesting book I once read titled something along the lines of 'Children of Alcoholic Parents' (I've seen it on Amazon - yellow cover from memory)and it puts family dynamics into perspective even when the children themselves are not alcoholics. It can be directly related to abuse.

While this is no criticism and I am no judge, what I will share is that when you read this book, you begin to see that even though you don't drink you have can have some ingrained habits of those who are actual alcoholics (through not fault of your own) as you grow up surrounded by those habits, thoughts and programming. The same applies for abuse - In that you may not abuse your own children physically but certain things you do and the way you react is passed onto them, as they were to you, and some of them are just as bad as being the alcoholic or the abuser :( . It's a really good way of looking at the situation from the outside and it's not until you identify these afflictions that you can change them. I know you would never purposely hurt your children - that is obvious but there may be something going on which no-one is realizing which is perpetuating the cycle inadvertently.

In your situation I would say that you and your son have your own ways on interacting with your Ex/his father both of which are not the most desirable. You rightly have anger which you project, your son acts in protection mode as he knows that it will lessen the likelihood of him being hurt. Just the same as people dance around an alcoholic - if the alcoholic is fine then you can breathe but at the same time they are not putting in any effort as they are drunk which makes the others unhappy but safe for that point in time. You learn to do your own tipy-toe dance around them. I think yours is confronting your Ex in writing if you get my point and what builds up inside you ends up being poured onto your son as you cannot understand his actions. You are both coping in your own but very different ways.

Please remember that yelling and screaming can be a form of abuse - I hope you and your son can call a truce and just respect each other enough to talk and listen otherwise I doubt little will improve.

I am a little short of time but I think you shouldn't be so hard on yourself or your son and maybe you both need to work out a new way of relating to the other without bringing out the unfavorable reactions in each other.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[ms spock]

See my son sexually abused his oldest sister. Much of that letter was the feelings he had about what he did as a child, and his own plea for leniency. But he was not on trial, and his emotions were all mixed up.

How old was your son when he sexually abused his sister? So did your son sexually abuse anyone other than his oldest sister? What was the age difference? How old is Don? Does he have access to other small children at this time? Is he in a sex offender's program? If his father can go to jail for these behaviours, why is your son not facing similar charges?

His sisters were not the only victims of abuse. He was also. These issues had to be addressed by this family, I had to understand where the sentiments in that letter were coming from, and I had to be open to listen and try to understand his own pain. This has not been easy and the relationship between Don, myself and his sisters is one of slow healing.

If you actually get this to work, you need to write a book about it. I have never seen a situation like this work out in over 26 years of being involved with sexual abuse victims and/or survivors.

With my son, I will not enable or condone his substance abuse. I expect him to get the help and treatment he needs to work through all of this. His apologies are sincere and he knows that he is forgiven. We cannot undo the past but only work towards a better and more healthy future.

There is no where on the planet that claims to have a cure for sex offenders. One of the things that disturbs me in situations like yours is that the next generation are left with the brother/sister sex offender to demonstrate "trust." So far (from the small sample I have seen,) this has not ended well for the next generation.

When there is abuse in families, it affects each person differently. Each person has to face what happened and then assess the personal damage it caused. They need to take accountability for what they are responsible for and stop taking accountability for those things they are not responsible for. This is far easier said than done.

And what is happing with the oldest sister - is she taking it - swallowing it all up because she doesn't want to lose you and her other sister? I have watched this play out a number of times and the child/youth/adult sexually abused by her sibling and having to have continuing contact with the sibling sex abuser usually has poor outcomes i.e. drugs, alcohol, suicide, other mental illnesses, lowered immune system, a whole range of physical illnesses.

For me, I needed to step outside my own hurt and listen with an open mind. As Paul Harvey said.."Now for the rest of the story." I wish there wasn't more to the stories, but there always is. If there is honest communication and open-mindedness healing can take place. But no one has to keep being abused, so find the truth and set the boundaries. Also set boundaries until everyone is telling the truth. Bottom line, stop the hurt; but allow for the healing.

Does this mean you are giving up on having grandchildren and your daughters on having children? The grooming signals from the bioDad weren't picked up by you and surrounding people, and your daughters would have to go and specially learn these skills to protect their offspring. Having a known sex offender in the intimate circle of children's lives is not in their best interests. It is putting the children in jeopardy and is not protecting the children. You don't want this to go down another generation.

No one would expect a woman or girl child to sit down for dinner or mediation with a stranger that picked them off the street and raped them. How is it that in families that there is this expectation that is possible and/or okay in any way? Does your daughter need to drink a lot when she is with the brother that sexually abused her? How is she actually coping with all the conflicting emotions that she is possibly feeling?

Hope this doesn't offend. That is not my intent. I have seen situations like this end badly.

 

[ms spock]

You are both coping in your own but very different ways.

Dear Gloria,

You are asking your son to stand up to his abusive father - something neither you or his stepfather ever did.

Maybe that will help give you some perspective.

ms spock

 

[anni]

I hope there's a plan also to go to the T seperately with your eldest son too. You have a tendency to view them in an either-or perspective, where one who is showing you love is the 'good' one automatically. I am sure he has wonderful qualiies but it still emeshed in some dynamics which are not condusive to your well being. It's my belief these are also encouraged privatly by the younger son in the hopes of somehow having both of you distracted elsewhere, to his benefit somehow or he'd be a party to healing there.It's needed, not just the situational bandaid which gets applied.Since you say the younger son dilikes the elder, he'd certainly have no qualms about using his brother in this way, I would think.

Coming clean is using Spic and Span through-out the entire house, as any clean-freak like yourself knows! :)

I do think it's extremely healthy and liberating to have gotten this far, might as well go for the dust bunnies under the bed, huh?

 

[intothelight]

Hope this doesn't offend. That is not my intent. I have seen situations like this end badly.

Ms. Spock,

Your questions do not offend at all. Don was a child when he abused his younger sister. There were no threats or coercion involved. When she realized it was inappropriate and ask him to stop, he did. In fact, he never told her not to tell. It was her own realization that it was "wrong" that kept her silent.

She finally spoke out about his sexual misconduct when her younger sisters told about what my ex did during visitations. The two younger girls were threatened. He flat out told them he would kill me if they told and they had every reason to believe that threat.

Don didn't deny it and in fact said we should call the police and have him arrested. Thing is, how do you call the police and say that one child molested another child over 20 years ago? Where is the crime? The crime is with his bio father, who I know in my heart abused him and then he acted out with his sister.

My ex was tried, convicted and sentenced to 100 years for what he did to my two youngest daughters. For my oldest daughter, she has forgiven her brother, realizing he was a victim and acting out. He has taken responsibility for what he did to her and asked for forgiveness. The thing that Don needs to do is face his own abuse, work through his feelings of guilt, and heal. His drinking and drugging is to cover his pain as a sex abuse victim.

Ms. Spock, not all male children that are abused turn out to be sexual predators. It is a huge insult to male victims to imply that they do. It is very common for abused children to act out with other children, not knowing that what they are doing is wrong. For many it is repeating a "game" or showing "love", as that is the lie the perp tells them to get them to be compliant.

For this family, there are no more lies. Only truth, hard truth, taking responsibility, getting help, and healing. I hope that my daughters learn how to have healthy relationships, find a life partner, have children and live happy, healthy lives. That is the point of therapy.

For Don, his interaction with the family is limited because of the substance abuse. Once he is sober, in counseling, and can face his own trauma, then he can heal. The rest of us are moving ahead. I also realize that for a young man, incest by a father throws a lot of other wrenches into who you are, your sexuality, your self-esteem, and the fact that he sees himself as an abuser like his father. (Referencing what he did as a child.)

Actually, none of the girls drink or do drugs. They suffer anxiety, depression, and one most likely PTSD from what her bio father did. The daughter that was abused by her brother is probably one of the most down to earth and mentally healthiest people you would ever meet. But she is in counseling and is working on getting better. She works hard, learns and does not wallow.

The girls are breaking the cycle. Don won't repeat the cycle, but he may not live very long if he doesn't get the help he needs. See my ex may have also be committing murder, as his oldest child suffers the hell of guilt and shame that he should not be suffering. Becoming a sexual predator is not always the outcome of abuse, but sometimes death is. I am only praying that he gets the help he needs before the actions of that MF result in the death of my child.

How horrible is it to do something you don't know is wrong and then to find out it is wrong? Not only is it wrong but society views it as despicable? Where is the hope for Don's healing if everyone in society holds the preconceived notion that all male victims become male predators? Tell me where the hope is?

 

[Gloria]

You are asking your son to stand up to his abusive father - something neither you or his stepfather ever did.

Maybe that will help give you some perspective.

Dear Ms. Spock,

I did stand up to my ex but every time I did, he would become more abusive towards my son so my son then hated me and blamed me for his father's abuse. My husband and I prayed very hard and talked to therapists who told us the only thing to do is to give him unconditional love and healthy morals and we did.

If you knew me, you would know that even as a young child, I didn't stand up for myself but I would have fist fights and bite my father when he became abusive. I have a pit bull protective response and so did my husband so it was very hard not to go after my ex.
Gloria

<quote condensed by Nicolette- only need content which is of direct relevance. All text within the two quote brackets can be deleted so you just have what you need making sure you leaving the []boxes around the quote start and finish>

 

[Gloria]

ITL,

If I could get away with it without being banned from the forum, I would love to post my nephew's picture from the "Hall of Shame". He was convicted of abusing young girls (and his father (my half-brother) was the one who abused me and my two sisters. I am very proud of the fact that when I finally remembered what happened to me (not until my 40's), I have face to face confronted the men that abused me - except for my father who is long dead. I told them right to their face exactly what they did to me.

My husband and I looked into adopting older abused children but when we found out how high the statistics were that the child would be a sexual molester or violent, we decided that we must put the safety of our children first so we did not adopt.

I belong to ACOA and so many people in ACOA have rampant sexual abuse issues in their families just like you and I and it's very complicated. It's very easy for others to tell us what to do but in the end, it is our decision. I choose not to see my ex.

There is wonderful thing called denial that solves everyone's problem. I understand this because I have had a lot of training in psychology. The victim (instead of hating the abuser) will do everything they can to please the abuser. The victim is usually very depressed and blames themselves for the abuse.

I think that a therapist is really the only person who can make recommendations on your situation because they understand the complex psychological dynamics involved.

ITL, I will message you but you are in my prayers constantly,
Much love,
Gloria

 

[Gloria]

Coming clean is using Spic and Span through-out the entire house, as any clean-freak like yourself knows! :)

I do think it's extremely healthy and liberating to have gotten this far, might as well go for the dust bunnies under the bed, huh?

Dear Annie,
As usual I love the way you phrase things - so eloquently! Yes, I have become very, very happy and healthy in the last few months and maybe that's why I am cleaning up the dust bunnies. My oldest son has come back to life!!! Yes! He felt that I didn't care what happened to him and that I loved my youngest son more! But now we are talking and close again. ITL's illness has affected me greatly. So I am not making my son decide because I did have closure with my mother before she died (and she was very abusive). I don't want to lose the opportunity to lose closure with his father so I am going to support him in getting out of denial about his dad, stopping the verbal abuse of me and letting him do his own thing.

I did spend much of the day yesterday (and believe me I had to re-edit 20 times to remove the sarcasm and vicious tone of my letter) but I listed all the things that my ex did that had a negative impact on my sons and myself and confronted him with the exact details of the rape. I am bringing it to the therapist. I was very respectful and objective and merely asked my ex to acknowledge his past mistakes, make amends and to stay completely away from me. So I'm so proud of myself for getting angry FINALLY!!!:D But you always say that I am very patient and don't lose my temper. I learned that from trying to be a good parent to my sons and by training abused animals. Anger is over. I cleaned up the dust bunnies and now I want to really help my oldest son to fulfill his dreams and I need to be very loving and firm with my youngest son because I will not tolerate his comments. Last night I thought about his father and how he drives everyone up the wall with his hot temper and my son has a hot temper and mean spirit sometimes.

Anyway, thank you as always, Annie. You seem to know better than just about anybody!
Hugs,
Gloria

 

[Gloria]

So I am going to T today at 11:00 and I'm done with my anger. The solution came when I used my training as a negotiator. I wrote down what I really wanted. What I really wanted was for my son to validate me for my sacrifices and to prevent my ex from ever causing more pain in my family.

I wrote the civil letter to him listing what he did that makes it impossible for me to have a social relationship with him and asked him to make amends to my sons. I'm proud of myself for working through this, going to the T every day and not letting it get violent or hurtful.

I feel that this is going to help my oldest son tremendously because we are openly acknowledging how his adopted father (my ex) destroyed his confidance. I feel that my youngest son has always this rage simmering underneath (and I love him and he is a super person - volunteer work, caring, responsible) but with his last gf, I used to hear his verbal abuse when he talked to her on the phone. How can you be so stupid? He sounded just like his father and in the past few days, my son (for the first time) has watched the mouth and the rolling eyes and the belittling me.

In 12 Step, they say you don't have to be honest with anyone but yourself. I feel good.

This is a very complicated situation and I tried to approach the subject outside of counseling but it got too out of control. I'm really glad we handled this in a T session.