Structural Dissociation?

[shimmerz]

Sorry for the long rambling post. But maybe you guys are getting used to me

Not rambling at all Hope. This is a ton of stuff being processed. It changes everything and there is only so much change that we can take it at one time, imho.

Shimmerz, did this happen all at one time, or gradually for you?

The mother abuser thing happened over a period of about a month. However, at that time I would go catatonic for 5 days, defragging the whole time (I remember so I was lucid but simply could not move), go to my T, go home, defrag for another 5 days, go to my T....well, you get it. When I was younger I always had my sister frame it up for me. I was a bitch, Mom was incredible for having adopted me, for having sacrificed so much, so STFU! Right, it was all my fault. T blew that up for me. So then, I had to figure out my relationship with my sister, my neices and nephew, me as a mother, my children, how that played into my relationships, how I was bullied as a kid, and so on and so on and so on. It wasn't linear, you see? My mother had long since died so I didn't have to deal with the here and now of that relationship but I still had major fallout to figure out.

Well, sometimes better. I don't know

I feel like this is because you are clicking in and out.
I was pretty cocky after I got back from LA. No triggering, no dissociation. Hmmmmm. Awesome! Then my issue with housing happened. Brought me to my knees!. OM freaking God! I haven't been like that since last November! It made me realize that I am still fragile when dealing with housing issues. I also realized my kids are a soft spot for me. So I avoid them right now. I have to get firm grounding in feeling non-dissociative. That is my number one directive right now.

It sounds to me like you are in the processing part more often because you need to function during the day. You work. You have kids. I can walk away from that right now. However, the housing issue I can't. I am trying to keep away from it like a hot stove. I need more 'SELF' time under my belt so I can call it up. I am actually going to lie to my kids about when my CT scan is (It is scheduled for March 13th) because they are driving me crazy with the 'when are you going to work' thing. I feel awful because I don't lie to my kids but they just won't let up. So people's expectations are a huge stress....not to mention our own expectations of ourselves. I DO need to get a job! A never ending game of Tug'O'War.

The only constant seems to be the pain, which cuts across all my experience. (Maybe that is its purpose :wideeyed::wideeyed::wideeyed:? To remind me that I am one person??? Wow. There's something I've not considered.)

I wondered about this this morning. I wonder if the pancreatitis (pain) is actually grounding me away from my head. Today I am reacting as if I am in pain, yesterday, when my head was f'ed, I was not. My T always said that somatics and conversion was all about expressing mental pain physically.

 

[Eleanor]

The more and less real part - not to that degree, but same in kind... parts of my experience come and go. :brb:As my H used to say after an episode "But it seems so REAL."

Honestly guys, coherent writing does not appear to be a problem for anyone here. How strange is that????:tdown::tdown::tdown:

I think it inherently takes time to process and integrate. If I've got the right theory now, you are LITERALLY growing new cells and connections. And we know that takes time.:meh:

 

[Hope4Now]

So...for better or worse, I shared what I wrote in the above post with my therapist this afternoon. Only way I could communicate to him the chaos that I'm experiencing all the time...moment to moment sometimes...I'm not sure why I feel like I want him to understand what it is like to be me.
Maybe to drive him away with my craziness? Maybe to get his external validation? Maybe both with some parts wanting one and others another. :yuck:.

Honestly guys, coherent writing does not appear to be a problem for anyone here. How strange is that????:tdown::tdown::tdown:

:roflmao: It's true! Why is that? We all feel so scrambled but somehow the writing is always clear. Must be a teacher part we have in common or something.

they are driving me crazy with the 'when are you going to work' thing. I feel awful because I don't lie to my kids but they just won't let up. So people's expectations are a huge stress....not to mention our own expectations of ourselves.

Is lying such a bad thing when you need to do it to protect yourself? It sounds to me like you are taking care of your own needs by doing this. Yes...people's expectations are HUGELY stressful! UGH. I'm sorry you have their pressure on top of your own self-pressure!

It wasn't linear, you see?

Okay...that makes sense. Thank you for answering. It really helps to hear what others' have experienced. Maybe that's some of the chaos I'm feeling...the confusion of fitting all these shattered and misshapen pieces together into something that makes sense.

 

[Valentino]

The only constant seems to be the pain, which cuts across all my experience. (Maybe that is its purpose :wideeyed::wideeyed::wideeyed:? To remind me that I am one person??? Wow. There's something I've not considered.)

This got my attention... I'd be curious if underneath the pain sensitivity constant is the big Self too...

I'm wired differently, and have always had a high capacity for physical pain and emotional pain.. and part of my healing has been to increase my ability to stay conscious and focused under physical discomfort and intense emotional pain.

Neuroscience wise, the brain has 2 separate regions that handle pain, one covers the raw physical sensation and another handles the emotional response. Some people are born without a muted sensation of emotional response, and end up being able to do amazing physical feats, but often they end up dying early because they don't notice little infections, etc. On the flip side, there are people who are born with hyper sensitive emotional pain response, and they lead torturous lives. But these people can adapt and end up living long lives.

I heard this story from David Linden, he's written books brain science of addiction and touch...

here's an excerpt describing how the brain processes pain:

The same general theme holds true for pain. There is a sensory/discriminative pathway that runs through the lateral portion of the thalamus, far from the midline, and continues to a region of the cortex involved in touch and muscular sensation (called the primary somatosensory cortex). A parallel pathway involved in the emotional sense of pain runs through the medial thalamus and then contacts two emotion centers, the insula and the anterior cingulate cortex. People who sustain damage limited to the lateral pathway will report an unpleasant emotional reaction to a painful stimulus, but will be unable to describe its specific qualities (dull, stabbing, cold, hot, etc.) or to locate the painful region on their body. Selective damage to the lateral, emotional pathway results in the opposite condition, called pain asymbolia, in which people can report the quality and location of a painful stimulus, but it no longer carries any emotional weight. They have normal reflex-withdrawal when subjected to pain (and a normal reflexive facial grimace), yet the pain just doesn’t seem to bother them very much.

In conversation we often use terms like “emotional pain” or “painful social situations.” Is this just metaphoric language, or do we actually experience certain powerful emotions the way we do physical pain? The accumulating evidence of recent years indicates that emotional pain activates the medial but not the lateral portion of the physical pain pathway. Experiments that have been devised to inflict even mild social pain (like exclusion from a group task or betrayal by a partner in a gambling game) have demonstrated significant activation of the insula and the anterior cingulate cortex. Emotional pain isn’t just a metaphor: In terms of brain activation, it partially overlaps with physical pain.
-- source: The Compass of Pleasure - Dr. David J Linden

 

[shimmerz]

Hmmm, this is a really great passage for me, thanks Valentino. It is the first time I have heard an explanation for my not being able to describe what type of physical pain I am experiencing, and for why I 'react' (as if I am being punched in the gut for example), but not feeling the actual pain.

I expect that whether I can 'feel' it in the conventional way or not, my system is, on some level, feeling it. So perhaps pain is more of an issue for me than I thought. I know many in this posting talk about pain, and lately my experience is that I must be feeling pain as I am reacting as if I was.

I wonder if the catalyst for splitting into parts is overbearing pain. It would make sense then, that with the integration (or when parts presented), there would be pain. I know my T stressed over and over again that conversion disorder was large in this dissociative thing. If it isn't safe to feel pain, then we have to bury it somehow. We are going to have to pay the piper somewhere along the line I would guess. Anyways, just thinking out loud.

I couldn't tell you what emotional pain was if I tried. I do know that T kept stressing that emotional pain leads to conversion disorder. Conversion disorder is painful and when the pain involved is investigated, seemingly, there is no cause for it. Many feel that it is 'faking' although it is not.

 

[Hope4Now]

Conversion disorder is painful and when the pain involved is investigated, seemingly, there is no cause for it. Many feel that it is 'faking' although it is not.

Although I don't have this diagnosis officially (at least I don't think I do...never actually asked but I think it may have been mentioned at some point), it does fit. And damn...the pain sure is real. Of that, there is no doubt. (I tend to be one of the hyper-sensitive types anyway). I can't do even close to what I used to in terms of activities (skiing, biking, walking, swimming, etc.). Hell, I can barely get up and down the stairs most of the time.

@Valentino...as always, thank you. You dig up the most interesting and perfect links. I really appreciate this!

Intriguingly...I have always felt emotions physically when I feel them. I feel sound physically too (even some words...although that physical experience is different). And sometimes things I see. It is very weird. Think I must have more than a few wires crossed in my poor old brain.

YIPES...I'm about to miss my dinner with the Trustees from my organization. My bad. This is more interesting though...:D.

 

[Eleanor]

Me three @Valentino! Really interesting and helpful. I have to learn more about pain. I learned a bunch some years ago, but there are more and more people doing pain research these days, and in much more helpful modes than before.

Both my H and I dissociate pretty well from physical pain. He more than I do, although I had hours and hours of "back labor" with my daughter and I know my midwife and her assistant were pretty impressed at how little I 'minded" it. And my pain perception does seem to be shifting... I had this cramps thing the other night that was just AWFUL. Way worse than being in labor... ????

I have to look up "conversion disorder.."

 

[shimmerz]

There is not a ton out there about the 'pain' portion of it because it is normally seen as a way of numbing, but I am suggesting that as one comes out of conversion disorder that pain 'comes back'. So an unwinding so to speak.

 

[Nam]

Just popping in to say that I've read the whole thread and it's a gold mine of information! All of you are brilliant.

 

[greenleaf]

Hi @Hope4Now -- I think that I also go between the modes you describe below except for the 4th one... I sometimes feel very incapable but it's sort of vaguer than you describe, like I'm not going to be able to cope with anything. I tend to then feel unsafe with that and bounce out of it, I think. Functioning in the world with those allegedly "normal" folks has felt like a very high priority for a long time; they were safer than staying at home, so I get scared if I feel helpless...

The biggest change I'm noticing over the last few months is that the trauma doesn't seem always like such a different universe when I'm at work, etc. Also, the physical issues are changing, some are improving, others I think I'm just now becoming aware of.

The way this has been happening seems to be from several ways of working on the issues...
One: if some feelings come up that seem from a different part, I'm working at "comforting" that part. What helps with differentiating sometimes is that the physical discomforts on my left side (itching muscles plus a sort of spatial mismatch feeling that is hard to describe) seem to mean that older emotions are close to the surface. Holding my left shoulder where it is tense, for instance seems to help bring a sense of comfort sometimes to those emotions. (My T mentioned protection and comfort as good goals, I think to provide such parts feeling older emotions.)
Two: lots and lots of massage, physical therapy, and now yoga seem to be helping me feel safer with those muscles/feelings and the muscles and joints are getting very slowly more mobile. The muscles have loads of knots, trigger points, fascial tightness I think, joints got misaligned and are taking forever to improve but they are improving thank goodness... but I've been storing this stuff in my muscles for decades. I just always thought I was just really really inflexible genetically, and ignored some physical stuff, plus lifted weights to get rid of stress too which might have helped keep things from getting really bad physically.
Three: feeling some of the difficult emotions when they come up might be helping me not go into the numb and tight muscle mode, but I often have a hard time even noticing that I'm doing it, and connecting to the emotions/staying in the muscle feeling can just vanish (plus I think I also avoid noticing that they are vanishing.)

Definitely the physical left side and those emotions are often more definitely linked for me now but this is slow. A year ago I was just getting very occasional itches in those left shoulder muscles; before that, I just went around without awareness of this stuff at all, but fogged out when stressed and got through some overwhelming situations feeling like a robot. The muscles were starting to have problems though; I guess I'm not 20 years old anymore. :oops: I feel lucky that I have found a number of great health practitioners.

I also think that learning about structural dissociation is helping -- I feel less unsafe with the whole thing, it makes more sense, so I don't bounce out of feeling scary emotions as fast. Maybe. Or maybe none of this stuff is real? :rolleyes: Hmmm time for bed.

• I feel like I exist in a surrealist film that I'm watching from multiple perspectives at any given time. It is utterly exhausting and confusing.
• The only constant seems to be the pain, which cuts across all my experience. (Maybe that is its purpose :wideeyed::wideeyed::wideeyed:? To remind me that I am one person??? Wow. There's something I've not considered.)
• Sometimes, the perspective keeps changing from one to another. For example, when I am fully focused in my working/professional self, all these flashbacks and vulnerable child/baby parts seem surreal. Not mine. They didn't happen. Don't exist. I sort of remember them, but they seem distant. "Why," I wonder, "would I have even been thinking I should ask for time off from work for all these health issues...that's crazy...I'm fine.
• Other times, like when I'm having all these PTSDish symptoms, the idea that I could actually be a responsible adult who goes to work seems totally surreal. Impossible. Can't do that.
• Sometimes it's all just a jumble. It makes my head feel like it's going to explode, and I get frozen into inactivity until something, some part, clicks in and stays clicked for a while. When I can click into some focused, highly functional self (e.g., work, mom, social, etc.), the PTSD stuff doesn't seem real. When I'm in the PTSD-y parts...vulnerable, scared, flashing back, etc., I know something is desperately wrong but I don't know what to do about it.

 

[Eleanor]

Ok. A little slow to the party here. "HEY! I have lots of various aches and pains these days, maybe it is NOT just because I am 50 years old! Maybe ... I am feeling my body for the first time and noticing stuff that's been there for a long time."

Evidence for this: Grad school boyfriend remarked on several occasions that I don't "live in my body." Perhaps he was correct...
I "injured" my neck several weeks ago. It got better. It got worse. It got better.... I am wondering if it will heal. And then I think back... did I ever have neck issues before... hmmmm, actually yes.
I have a ongoing hip thing. Anger. Started in grad school.

but I often have a hard time even noticing that I'm doing it, and connecting to the emotions/staying in the muscle feeling can just vanish (plus I think I also avoid noticing that they are vanishing.)

This... is extremely familiar.:shifty::cautious:

I have a hard time consistently tracking my physical state (can people actually DO this?) unless it is really intrusive and feels BAD. Is that not normal? I tend to reinjure stuff I've actually hurt (messed up my shoulder on a boat last summer) unless I am REALLY careful and attentive. That injury was... qualitatively different than other stuff... but maybe it was just worse? How does one sort this stuff out?

 

[greenleaf]

Ok. A little slow to the party here. "HEY! I have lots of various aches and pains these days, maybe it is NOT just because I am 50 years old! Maybe ... I am feeling my body for the first time and noticing stuff that's been there for a long time."

I wonder about this too, being 51... Apparently changes in hormones can let joints, tendons etc. get inflamed more easily, so that could be part of the issue.

However, I also have been finding that various deep muscles haven't been giving feedback, on my left side. I only noticed this when a massage therapist would press on the left and right at the same time. So bizarre not to have noticed this for decades but I guess that fits.

Evidence for this: Grad school boyfriend remarked on several occasions that I don't "live in my body." Perhaps he was correct...
I "injured" my neck several weeks ago. It got better. It got worse. It got better.... I am wondering if it will heal. And then I think back... did I ever have neck issues before... hmmmm, actually yes.
I have a ongoing hip thing. Anger. Started in grad school.
This... is extremely familiar.:shifty::cautious:

It is very strange to see old issues in the light of the "parts" and dissociation mental model. I think I'm feel sad about how much I missed out on too; I didn't have the internal structures to reciprocate in a decent relationship, for one thing.

I have a hard time consistently tracking my physical state (can people actually DO this?) unless it is really intrusive and feels BAD. Is that not normal? I tend to reinjure stuff I've actually hurt (messed up my shoulder on a boat last summer) unless I am REALLY careful and attentive. That injury was... qualitatively different than other stuff... but maybe it was just worse? How does one sort this stuff out?

I don't think there is a test that can tell us. Yet, anyhow. There is just really basic MRI stuff that does at least show differences between non-ptsd folks and various subgroups of ptsd. These show certain brain areas as being less or more active.

@Eleanor, do you have insurance that will let you go to physical therapy for your neck issues? I'm finding PT extremely helpful; I seem to have posture issues related to chronically tight muscles. PT folks can be really good at noticing those, which is helpful... though some related part of me doesn't want to be noticed sometimes! Some PTs seem to have heard of at least some of the physical issues that can result from PTSD... I did find that their original assumption was that I had the sort of PTSD that comes from an adult trauma though; it's different in some relevant ways from these entrenched dissociation things.

If you get a good PT, you don't necessarily have to sort out all the chicken-and-egg issues with the physical problem, I'm finding. They should go slow; I hope you can find a good one who is educated on this or willing to read. There is also somatic experiencing etc. but if there is an actual physical misalignment problem that goes back, like, decades , one might need PT or some such.

I haven't seen anything that relates to these physical 'absence of body sense' sorts of things but would love to see research confirming that. Since peoples' symptoms are so varied and often related to different traumatic events, it would take a lot of "test subjects" to capture the range of dissociation issues, I'd think, and a ton of money for all those MRIs. Maybe there will be progress though!:unsure:

I wonder if these physical things are indicators of physical abuse more than other types? Though so often you can't really differentiate abusive situations into just one type, there is so much wrong going on. :(

I remember hearing or reading that sometimes cats tend not to show physical problems until they really can't avoid it, supposedly because they are solitary hunters and not as social as some animals. I wonder now, though, if they maybe just don't feel some of the physical problems because cats are for whatever evolutionary reason more likely to have a "deeper" part of their brain decide it's not safe to... The ability to develop structural dissociation can't have suddenly evolved in humans, this must be shared by other mammals, it seems to me.