Structural Dissociation?

[Hope4Now]

anyway the state CHANGES and the story changes with it

so true!

Thus our responses to the world are organized around and determined by the stories "we tell ourselves" or perhaps more literally that are encoded in our cells. So to develop a new response, we often need to internalize a new story. "How do I want this story to end?" and how do I get it to end that way....

In another thread a long while back, @shimmerz posted something about the work that's being done with amputees that helps the brain heal (the Doidge Box). Basically the work is helping the brain get unstuck by telling it a story. Trauma processing is quite similar, I think. I have only done one little piece of it, but it was very powerful. One needs to be present in the now and in SELF but also with the part that is stuck in the trauma. The now/SELF can then help the part alter the story by intervening with what the part needs, and this helps the part/brain pathway get unstuck. It was really hard and took my poor protector parts greatest energy to suspend their fear and disbelief in the process, but it was kind of cool. Didn't quite work out for me (the part I was trying to rescue split into two! One is still stuck, but the other got out. Fascinating. Anyway, here's the thread link. It is quite interesting to contemplate: https://www.myptsd.com/threads/norman-doidge-the-mirror-box.48838/

I'm not a brain bigot

You know, I don't think I am either, in spite of what I wrote earlier. It is hard for me to understand how memory could be stored in the body without being linked to the brain. I suppose I will need to read a bit more about neurons and how they communicate.

(I was among the oddballs in grad school who, confronted with the conceptual puzzle about swapping heads and personal identity, said neither would be the same person... they'd be hybrids. Lots of people were surprisingly hostile to this view!):alien::bookworm:

:cool: You're so cool. Did you study psychology? Neurology?

 

[Hope4Now]

This is a well done website about the brain, if anybody is interested. I use it in my teaching sometimes. Makes things pretty accessible. http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/ For all on this thread (mind/brain nerds :geek:) make sure you click on the tab for the "advanced" explanations. Much better.

 

[Valentino]

I was meaning to explore perspectives but ended up exploring PANIC/GRIEF system and Attachment theory in this post. But I think there's still some decent stuff in here worth sharing, hope it's not too confusing.

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I've been rethinking the order and links of the Fight, Flight or Freeze survival mechanism trio. Maybe it works with Freeze first, then there is the option of Fight or Flight. In trauma, coping systems are overwhelmed leaving no reasonable fight or flight options, so freeze simply stays in play. And in the case of dissociation, when there's no effective physical or social form of fight or flight, the personality fractures creating or reinforcing an EP which is made up of unresolved emotional suffering. Maybe it's the mind's clever way of procrastinating dealing with the emotional and subjective parts of the traumatic experience until a later safer time and environment for reprocessing & integrating memories.

So, I still think the RAGE circuitry matches with the FIGHT response, but now I'm playing with the idea that PANIC/GRIEF system is linked with the FLIGHT response, with FEAR circuits linked with FREEZE response.

So a new confusing potentially dangerous event happens, the FEAR circuits are triggered first, FREEZE response to stop, pay attention, ORIENT yourself. Then, if information gathered points towards actual danger, more FEAR circuits triggered along with going into memory banks of past experiences looking for adaptive response. In most situations, the brain comes up with either FIGHT (RAGE) or FLIGHT (PANIC/GRIEF) response, with FEAR circuits initially eased, and deactivated once actions are deemed effective.

With PTSD it is very common for people to associate danger with simply activation or sense of other's activation of RAGE, FEAR or PANIC/GRIEF circuits. This becomes mal-adaptive, and in particular the PANIC/GRIEF system can become avoided, denying the restorative and integrative aspects of this emotional system.

Now with children that are brought up with a secure attachment care-taker, what normally happens after PANIC/GRIEF system is activated, the child runs to the care-taker, and then helps guide the child to integrating the scary experience. By a combination of helping the child be Seen, feel Safe, and get emotional Soothing (Dan Siegel's 4 S's of Secure attachment: Seen, Safe, Soothed, Secure). Maybe the care-taker is using both CARE & PANIC/GRIEF circuits here? So with repetition of this process, a child develops resilience and also skills to provide self-secure attachments (Self-CARE circuitry), so with future overwhelming emotional experiences, they can re-integrate it themselves. Or they have the confidence & skills to find another care-taker figure to help with processing the traumatic memories.

For many of us on the forum, we have insecure attachment childhood history. So, instead our care-takers added extra emotional baggage after our PANIC/GRIEF system was triggered. If we have avoidant attachment, our care-taker simply dismissed our emotions, and we learned to disown, avoid, or numb our emotions. If we have ambivalent/anxious attachment, our care-taker was unpredictable with boundaries and support, sometimes they provide support, other times they seek it from the child. These poor boundaries, creates an underlying fear of abandonment and often comes out as a strategy of using positive emotions to cover up past unresolved emotions. And finally there's reactive attachment, this is where caretaker was actively abusive towards our cries for help. This can end up creating a self-hatred or rejecting human vulnerability type strategy. As a child it's hard to blame the parent for the abuse, because that adds on more fear and helpless feelings. So children choose the route of self-blame, internalizing their emotional suffering by attacking triggers, negative emotions or building up walls.

For dissociation it stems from disorganized attachment, which is a highly confusing combination of secure, avoidant, ambivalent, or reactive attachment experiences.

With no hope for making sense and finding consistency in the caretaker's attachment style, one is forced to become fearful of their security & resource provider. In this situation of contradictory positions, there is a dual activation and intensification of FEAR & PANIC/GRIEF circuits, one's own personality gets fractured, an EP gets created around the emotional suffering experiences that are deemed to have triggered the PANIC/GRIEF circuit, and then an ANP is formed around the remaining personality along with added role of policing EP's and also creating a persona with self-deception in order to keep the image of the care-taker figure as secure. (Fantasy Bond effect)

Early in life, children develop fantasies of being fused with a parent or primary caregiver to compensate for what is emotionally missing in their environment. The imagined connection offers a sense of safety, partially gratifies the child’s needs and relieves painful feelings of emotional deprivation and rejection. This fantasy persists into adult life, although it may be largely unconscious. As a result, the hurt individual maintains a sense of pseudo-independence, an attitude that they can take care of themselves without a need for others. As a result of merging with their parents in their imagination, people continue to both nurture and punish themselves in the same way they were treated by their parents.
-- source: Link Removed

Most people have fears of intimacy and are self-protective and at the same time are terrified of being alone. Their solution to their emotional dilemma is to form a fantasy bond.

This illusion of connection and closeness allows them to maintain an imagination of love and loving while preserving emotional distance. Destructive fantasy bonds, which exist in a large majority of relationships, greatly reduce the possibility couples achieving intimacy.
--source: Link Removed

So from the secure attachment model, the way out is by completing the unfinished story that got stuck in the PANIC/GRIEF process. It is learning to become our own caretaking/parent figure, providing reflection & secure attachment to our EP's. And it's also working on relationships to develop an external support system of friends, family or professionals who have earned our trust, to provide empathy, compassion, and ability to help 'bear witness' to our unresolved memories and EP's.

Human attachment can be understood as involving four S’s. We need to be seen, safe, and soothed, in order to feel secure. Being seen means that our inner mental life is sensed beneath our behavior. Our caregiver hears our cry, figures out what our inner need is, and then offers us something that meets that need. Being safe means we are both protected from harm and not terrified by our caregiver. To be soothed means that when we are distressed, our caregiver’s response makes us feel better. When we need comfort, we get a hug. And all of this—being seen, safe, and soothed in a reliable way—gives us an overall sense of security in the relationship.
...
Whether or not the other person is able to communicate with you about these issues of terror and loss, the growth really begins and ends with your own internal work. If you find that implicit memories of past experiences of loss or trauma still intrude on your life, you can work on your journal writing, in conversations with close and trusted friends, or with a therapist to help bring these unresolved issues toward resolution. I will share with you this knowledge from working over the last thirty years with people who have lacked resolution: Healing is possible no matter what happened to you. Though all forms of insecure attachment may be accompanied by a sense of shame, that painful feeling that there is something wrong with you, please know that shame is an emotion that can arise especially with being disconnected and terrified. We all heal in different ways and in our own time, but beginning the process by seeing what happened and acknowledging how it has influenced your life, including any senses of shame that might be present, is a huge and important starting place on the journey to integrate your life and create the relationships with yourself and others that will be fulfilling and further support your healing and growth!

Disorganized attachment and its unresolved trauma and loss, like the other non-secure models of attachment, can be transformed through your relationships and your reflections.
--- Brainstorm by Daniel J. Siegel

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It is a bit challenging to work with Jaak Panksepp's core emotional models and trying to match them with human personality, emotions and behavior. I think it's more of an issue of Apples and Oranges, Panksepp's work is researching mammal brains and root emotions. Humans do have similar brain roots but more layers and a whole lot more wiring, so the expression of emotions are more nuanced with different levels of intensity and variety of flavor combinations. In a sense he's approaching it bottom-up, while psychology and most neuroscience is top-down. Both of those approaches are scientific in nature, with a detached observer view. Maybe I'm trying to explore things from an inside-out and outside-in approach which I find more practical. But that can be highly subjective and delving towards spiritual practices and insights.

 

[Hope4Now]

I like the connections @Valentino. Am very interested in the attachment stuff. And the new "story" we learn by forging a secure attachment with our therapists (hopefully) can perhaps calm down the FEAR and PANIC/GRIEF circuits enough to let us process the other stuck stuff. At least that's my hope. Of course it doesn't work in that nice sequential way that I wish it did, but it still works. I think. I hope.

I'm not sure I have ever experienced a secure attachment...except maybe to my dogs. Not my current dog who is psychotic, but the ones I grew up with. I'm looking forward to reading Siegel's work. I like the bits you've quoted.

 

[Valentino]

I also struggle with getting secure attachment from others, after my adult traumas it was worse. Though inherently with my Asperger's unique brain wiring, I regularly deal with not being seen, not feeling safe, and/or not being soothed by others.

I'm still working on improving my communication, but even when I am successful at describing my inner life in a way someone else can mentally understand it, internally they still don't relate or can't relate, so my inner world is hardly ever seen. As an alternative, I try to have my interest with deep understanding, seen by others, but I usually fail here also, most people don't share this passion or thinking too deeply makes them uncomfortable.

Being socially blind to most all of the non-verbal social cues and rules, also creates feelings of underlying anxiety, so I don't often feel socially safe. With time, I have developed systems and a large mental database of people's behaviors. But I still run into behavior that startles and confuses me. One of the toughest personalities for me to figure out are aggressive personality disordered people, and instinctive body types. They think and act way very fast, too fast for me to keep up. And along with that, they often over-personalize even trivial issues. Unfortunately there's plenty of them in the world, so I try to see each experience as an opportunity for learning and exposure.

Neurotypical ways of emotionally soothing and comforting others tends to have the opposite effect on me. So I'm also rarely emotionally soothed by others. Also being emotionally hyper-sensitive, I tend to notice and feel all of the excess unresolved emotions most people carry and bleed onto others. I also am sensitive to new environments, in particular excess lighting or ambient noise.

But, even with all these struggles from the external world, somehow I have figured out how to provide a somewhat secure attachment to myself. I am constantly monitoring my anxiety and stress levels, and respond with conscious deep slow breathing, and other self-soothing practices. I also try to bring self-awareness to whatever emotions come up, and try to make sense of them, with a 'Name it to Tame it' type of normalization effect. And I continue to work on being open to experience, expanding my ability to tolerate discomfort, along with a sense of natural curiosity which helps me not only see what's inside, but also investigate deeply to try to understand.

It's hard to map out exactly how I ended up with this, no one in my family showed/taught it, nor my friends or community. Sort of stumbled upon it through a lot of spiritual exploration, awareness practices, along with a disciplined seated meditation practice. All of that eventually led me to recognize how most all common coping strategies are counter productive, and self-help or excess seeking identification are indirect forms of self-rejection. Being hard on myself, adding more pressure, or avoiding what's going on, were simply making things worse or just delaying the inevitable.

calm down the FEAR and PANIC/GRIEF circuits enough to let us process the other stuck stuff

I'm still fascinated with exploring just how the mechanics of 'processing' stuck stuff works. I think there's a lot of misconceptions out there. Some people expect or want the processing to only happen under a state of total calm or even magic like detachment. Others are overly aggressive, and try to force it through with controlled exposure. I think it's somewhere in the middle, the exposure has to come out naturally, and most likely you can't be feeling fully calm and comfortable during the process.

So maybe my meditation practice helped increase my capacity to tolerate discomfort, and the awareness side of it, helped to trust in and allow the body's wisdom and life's circumstances to lead the way.

Here's a nice technical description of the 'processing' stuff in therapy:

Integration of implicit and explicit memory arousal levels must be therapeutically managed to be consistent with the dynamics of the inverted U, aiding neuroplasticity. For example, if arousal levels are too low, traumatic images are not accessed. If arousal levels are too high, clients can begin to dissociate or become so overwhelmed with the traumatic memory that they lose contact with immediate surroundings. Since hippocampal and PFC networks can become impaired, clients will reexperience the trauma.
...
Clients need to gradually move out of their comfort levels and should be told that a moderate degree of anxiety is most productive. Waiting to feel comfortable is counterproductive. The more distinctive the newly consolidated explicit memories and insights are while they are fused with a moderate degree of anxiety, the more likely the trauma flashbacks will diminish in intensity.
-- excerpt from Brain2Brain p.170 written by Dr. John B. Arden
https://books.google.com/books?id=MyUhBgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

and a quote from the 'father of attachment theory':

"The role of the psychotherapist is "to provide the patient with a secure base from which he can explore the various unhappy and painful aspects of his/her life, past and present, many of which he/she finds it difficult or perhaps impossible to think about and reconsider without a trusted companion to provide support, encouragement, sympathy and on occassion, guidance." -- John Bowlby (father of attachment theory) -- "A Secure Base"

 

[Hope4Now]

I am glad that you have found ways to care for yourself @Valentino. Most people don't, I think. It must be terribly challenging to manage the overwhelm of aspergers as well as the ptsd issues. It's great that you have a disciplined meditation practice. I'm still working on finding what is right for me. Are you in therapy? If so, how have you managed your relationship with your therapist?

Oops...editing to say one more thing. I like the quote about trauma processing. It's true that there is a fine balance to strike. Like a complicated dance between therapist and client with each helping the other maintain the balance and flow. Well, maybe therapist bears a bit more of the burden of balancing, but needs the client's input too...

 

[Eleanor]

RAGE is definitely fight - in all mammals including us. FEAR is flight or freeze and focus on the direction of the threat. PANIC is freeze/cry/scan for help/get back to the den, no direct threat need be apparent - it is the threat of being alone that is the issue. These are hard wired responses that all mammals have. That's what Panksepp's work (and the work of several human neuroscientists like Damasio) have demonstrated. For better or worse it is where human beings start.

PANIC is an interesting system tho - because it is both negatively valenced (in its anxiety state when unsatisfying) but when satisfied it has a positive valence (unlike FEAR, which just feels bad or not at all) PANIC when fully satisfied feels euphoric/peaceful/interconnected. The primary neurotransmitters for this system are the opiods. So it effects perceptions of pain as well. It doesn't make the pain go away, but you don't mind it so much. PANIC is not adrenaline based, whereas FEAR and RAGE are.

Being socially blind to most all of the non-verbal social cues and rules, also creates feelings of underlying anxiety, so I don't often feel socially safe.

One of the primary mechanisms for "attuning" to others is via "mirror neurons." These are specialized circuits that allow us to simulate the the internal states of others by effectively activating them in ourselves from the outside in. So, the baby sees the mom smile. The mirror neurons do their thing, the baby smiles. The baby feels happy, and learns that smile means happy. This is a process that babies have to do. One theory about asperger's is that there is a deficit in the mirror neurons, and that makes social attunement very very difficult indeed - and without social attunement it is hard to quiet down the PANIC system. A theory of mind in others is something we build up as we mature, and without the main avenue for that... the whole thing is pretty dicey.

Neurotypical ways of emotionally soothing and comforting others tends to have the opposite effect on me.

Do the deep pressure techniques work on you? Weighted blankets, squeeze boxes, that sort of thing? The theory is that those things quiet anxiety (PANIC) anyhow, by replicating the experience one has in utero or as a baby.

Have you tried any of the exercises Paul Ekman does? He teaches people to recognize emotions in others by first teaching them to evoke specific emotions within themselves by precise patterns of facial muscle activation that are particular to basic emotions. And once one has learned to recognize the expression one can learn to recognize micro expressions (when they don't mean to show what they are feeling.) So when one learns to do the specific "face" associated with an emotion it triggers that emotion. It has apparently helped a lot of people do a lot better at recognizing emotion in others. This goes a long way in orienting to the social world. Or can do.

I'm still fascinated with exploring just how the mechanics of 'processing' stuck stuff works

Me too. I would love to understand it. I think you are right that there is a kind of balance to be struck in really honestly feeling whatever the stuck part is stuck on, and staying conscious enough of the NOW to not ... what? Freak out. To let the thing play out without being sucked back down the whirlpool.

Thanks for bringing up the Ramachandran phantom limb stuff, I want to look at that again... it is so so interesting...

 

[Valentino]

Young, helpless children exhibit a PANIC/GRIEF response when they get lost. This negative feeling helps cement infant-mother attachments. Young animals are adept at crying out for care, and such feeling of sudden social loss is a separation-distress process-a psychic pain-that appears to be based on a brain system that eventually can precipitate adult sadness and grief. The anatomies of this system appear to be of great importance for psychiatric disorders such as depression. Precipitous arousal of this system may be essential for panic attacks. This system may also contribute to childhood disorders such as autism.

source - Cross-Species Affective Neuroscience - Supporting document - Jaak Panksepp
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0021236#s4

Okay, since I threw my Asperger's brain into the discussion, I can delve into how my experience seems to be lacking a lot of PANIC/GRIEF system. Some common theories are it could be lack of connectivity wiring in the brain, lack of activity in those areas, or it could be my FEAR mechanism is always activated in some way.

One NIMH brain scan study noted that disrupted connectivity in the brain, in particular the limbic system (including amygdala FEAR center) is out of sync with 2 other primary social brain areas.

In particular, the greatest decreases occurred between a cluster of brain regions involved in the emotional aspects of social behavior (the limbic brain) and two other clusters: one involved in language and communication and the other in the interplay between visual perception and movement.
...
According to Dr. Gotts, what they found was not that this circuit was inactive, but that, among participants with ASD, patterns of activity in the three clusters of brain centers did not correlate with each other. “So a circuit that is normally in sync with the rest of the social brain has become decoupled. The limbic brain is composed of areas and structures that mediate emotional and affective components of our social interactions, so you can understand the social rules about how other people are behaving and acting. These brain regions are active in autism spectrum disorders and are coordinated amongst themselves, but they are not interacting appropriately with the rest of the social brain.”
-- Link Removed

So, I'm guessing that maybe my FEAR circuits could always be on because the wiring is lacking or not in sync with other areas of the brain in the PANIC/GRIEF circuits, which can deactivate the FEAR circuits.

PANIC is an interesting system tho - because it is both negatively valenced (in its anxiety state when unsatisfying) but when satisfied it has a positive valence (unlike FEAR, which just feels bad or not at all) PANIC when fully satisfied feels euphoric/peaceful/interconnected. The primary neurotransmitters for this system are the opiods. So it effects perceptions of pain as well.

More evidence here, is that I don't really feel or relate to these social bonding highs. At the same time, I also don't relate to separation anxiety. In the past I attributed it to family cultural upbringing, but lack of separation anxiety is not uncommon with Aspie's. I have a much higher than average pain tolerance, and I don't get same emotional highs or soothing from percocet (opiate) or alcohol. Beta blockers do have a mild effect on easing anxiety.

Maybe it's more of a brain connectivity issue for me. I think I probably still have a PANIC/GRIEF system in my brain, I just have to consciously access it. And maybe the access is limited by consciously monitoring my anxiety levels from the FEAR circuits. I have put a lot of focus learning how to grieve my way, how to recognize and adapt from shame and guilt. I usually tear up and cry during meditation, but it's just pure crying without any memories. So I think my PANIC/GRIEF is there, just out of sync or lacking connectivity.

Ironically, I'm a bit out of my element (slight confusion) with my story triggering personal inquiries and comforting suggestions (likely from PANIC/GRIEF circuits). I think it might be me feeling or recognizing my lack of PANIC/GRIEF activation, and having to consciously translate to try to respond in like kind.

I'm still working on finding what is right for me. Are you in therapy? If so, how have you managed your relationship with your therapist?

I have never been in therapy, but when I was younger I did a lot of work with self-help, motivation, marketing, positive thinking, self-talk. So after my initial adult traumas, I probably used a variation of CBT and distraction to cope. It was only after my secondary adult traumas, where I lost my faith in humanity triggered by narcissist attack followed by borderline personality disorder attack, totally confused my confidence in predicting other people. That forced me to start exploring all ways of self healing, starting with acupuncture, energy healing, herbs, drugs, fitness, qi-gong, spiritual practices, somatics, psychology. Eventually recognizing my Aspergers traits 1.5 years into my first relationship.

It was hard for me to even consider the therapist route, I had a wide background of tools and knowledge from my self-help/positive thinking days. Also my secondary traumas made me even more skeptical of others. And I met many therapists and counselors in spiritual groups, and hardly ever was impressed by their insights, often I was shocked by their obvious lack of inner peace. I did seriously consider therapy once, but I realized I was emotionally exhausted and having to try to explain myself was one challenge, and the other bigger challenge was I didn't want to spend mental energy trying to force myself into a psychological box-like model.

Do the deep pressure techniques work on you? Weighted blankets, squeeze boxes, that sort of thing? The theory is that those things quiet anxiety (PANIC) anyhow,

I naturally stumbled upon spikey balls and self-massage techniques before I realized my Aspergers. But I'm really quite stable and adapted right now, and by increasing my self-awareness sensitivity, I can catch anxiety spikes very early, which allows more flexibility with soothing or escaping techniques. I'm kinesthetic, so I manage all of this mostly by feel or maybe even procedural/muscle memory.

For my experience, I think my anxiety is from FEAR system not the PANIC/GRIEF system. And based on observation of my GF, when her FIGHT fails, she quickly defaults to running away. While when I'm under stress or confused, I tend to do FREEZING type behavior, stop, observe, explore, wait for more proof. She runs first, and it seems quite instinctive.

So, I'm still exploring and testing this theory that FEAR is the FREEZE, and PANIC/GRIEF is the FLIGHT (to safety, to attachment). I think I got it from reading some research by Panksepp or maybe it was Steven Porges. I'll have to look into that a bit more.

Oh here's some interesting details about the PANIC/GRIEF system:

He points out that this system is crucially linked to respiratory and vocalization circuits. As he puts it, we are wired to cry and wail when we feel abandoned. In body psychotherapy, the chronically held diaphragm is recognised as constricting breathing in a defence against a deeper out-breath which would release the separation cry. This correlates with another phenomena that is very familiar in therapy : the importance of crying and of voicing with feeling. Though this can’t bring back what is lost, the powerful communication of sadness and separation distress completes an intrinsic neurophysiological-emotional cycle, often allowing the client to breathe more fully afterwards and to relax and feel held. The PANIC system is fundamentally bound up with abandonment, mourning and loneliness. It is closely linked to the perception of pain as well – contact comfort releases opiates which soften pain. Separation, on the other hand, rapidly diminishes the supply of opiates, leaving the individual with very real ‘withdrawal’ symptoms facing the agonizing feeling of abandonment and loss.
Link Removed

I don't relate much with wired to cry or abandonment fears. But I do actively use breath awareness and deep slow breathing. It's a sort of conscious way to trick my autonomic nervous system to stay more in parasympathetic mode (rest & digest) and weaken sympathetic mode (reactive limbic system). But with others with more functional PANIC/GRIEF system, getting CARE or support from others, naturally relaxes their body and opens the breathing.

Have you tried any of the exercises Paul Ekman does? He teaches people to recognize emotions in others by first teaching them to evoke specific emotions within themselves by precise patterns of facial muscle activation that are particular to basic emotions.

Oh, I have adapted several ways to work around my social blindness. My upper face has very limited range of motion or expression, so that's partially why many Aspie's don't do eye contact. I also used to be confused or uncomfortable with eye contact in the past. But now I can use eye contact, but I primarily focus on the eye balls, I can get a feel for someone's emotional state by their pupil dilation and maybe even sense pressure or imbalances between each eye. I also have very good relative pitch, so I listen for nuances in someone's speech tone which gives me non-verbal information. I am also very aware of physical body language, posture, fidgeting, signs of anxiety, aggression, or comfort. And while I used to practice total emotional detachment as a strategy before my traumas. Part of healing my traumas, I turned on full emotional sensitivity. It probably provides me with insights into nuance of other's emotional state, but it does have a downside of getting emotionally overloaded or distracted by the other's excess intense emotional charge. Occasionally I have fully merged with someone's EP, and it was highly confusing at first because I was initially interpreting it through a personalized story. Only later after some inquiry, I figure out that it wasn't my emotion. Another downside is that often I'm sensitive to the unconscious emotional bleeding or EP leaking, that many people carry.

So I have adaptations to work around my social blindnesses, but the downside is that it still isn't an automatic process. So communication can be quite challenging at times, especially if I'm trying to talk about a complex or highly charged issue. I have to combine all this emotional input with all the thoughts shared and then understand it in my head, then translate it into more personalized neurotypical general audience format, and also try to keep it concise but still accurate and also fair, reasonable and helpful.

But I do appreciate the personal interest, suggestions, and support. I was sharing my Aspergers story more as to offer perspective in regards to the attachment theory, and also maybe to offer some hope for others.

And now I can also use my Aspie perspective, to give you some real life experiential research to explore or consider. With my out of sync wiring or lack of connectivity in my brain, I probably have easier direct access to raw emotional systems without any story or very limited autobiographical narrative. Like I have great obsessive focus ability, it could simply be that I'm merging with the raw SEEKING emotional systems, and it's easy for me to cut or limit the circuitry to the rest of the emotional systems.

 

[Eleanor]

Okay, since I threw my Asperger's brain into the discussion,

Thank you for trusting us with this. it is INCREDIBLY helpful. I know it can be a difficult thing to talk about. My first husband was Asperger's-y - undiagnosed, took me years to figure it out. He is a super guy. My family has strong Aspy threads. PLUS it makes it much easier to figure out what might be going on. I've spent my life in higher-ed (full of people on the continuum!) My best friends tend to be on the continuum (duh, I married someone with this..) so... you are among friends with me!

For myself, I have a disorganized attachment style, not extreme, but troublesome. And one of my EP's is FEAR and ANGER based, the other PANIC(specifically grief). Due to emotional neglect and conditioning. ANGER is bad in my family - so I "don't do anger" - well, my ANP never shows it, only the EP (all kinds of problems here now with my daughter...) And because FEAR primes for ANGER - I don't really do FEAR much at all either. This was very confusing for years because my best friend growing up doesn't (so far as I can tell) do FEAR at all - so I thought I was a coward until I was 40 and realized ... OH! I am way braver than most people! Who would have guessed?

maybe my FEAR circuits could always be on because the wiring is lacking or not in sync with other areas of the brain in the PANIC/GRIEF circuits, which can deactivate the FEAR circuits.

AH!! This makes a great deal of sense to me. The PANIC circuits being non-responsive they couldn't play their part in conditioning the FEAR response. PANIC (satisfied by attachment) quiets FEAR. No attachment, no diminishment of FEAR and so it doesn't get calibrated very well. Do you think the hypersensitivity to light and sound are related to the FEAR being on? That would also fit with the pain tolerance (FEAR is a mild analgesic.)

I have put a lot of focus learning how to grieve my way, how to recognize and adapt from shame and guilt. I usually tear up and cry during meditation, but it's just pure crying without any memories

Shame and guilt are what Damasio calls "tertiary emotions." That is, they require a complex cognitive model of behavior to exist. Babies don't feel shame or guilt. Young children don't either. These responses are taught, and taught in context. They require a certain level of consciousness of others to exist. And they build on the underlying emotional activation systems, usually PANIC & FEAR - but in your case, likely more FEAR. For neurotypicals shame and guilt involve a lot of abandonment/PANIC reactions. So your shame and guilt might be "non-standard" in a way. Grieving, strictly speaking in a Pankseppian mode, is different... it IS about separation from attachment objects, although those objects need not be people, and loss of them. It is a secondary or tertiary emotion depending. As such, it can be built on any of the attaching emotional response systems CARE, PLAY and LUST as well as PANIC. One of the things that is difficult for a lot of people to understand is that PANIC/attachment is essentially different than PLAY/affection/loyalty and CARE/nurturing. LUST type bonding can be non-existent (if pure LUST) but in humans is generally suffused with elements of PLAY, CARE and PANIC/Attachment. (We really need a better word for the PANIC system...)

If, as you hypothesize, the PANIC system is not well connected in your brain, and is hypo-active, then it might be that in meditation - when the "off-line" gets to come on, it activates and ... does what it does - seeks connection by crying. Babies cry in the absence of care-taking. So it doesn't need any memories to trigger it necessarily. I hope it isn't too uncomfortable.

I tend to do FREEZING type behavior, stop, observe, explore, wait for more proof. She runs first, and it seems quite instinctive.

This is FEAR (Stop, observer) plus SEEKING (explore, wait for more proof) behavior. Her FEAR response, (run first) is less integrated with other systems. That's my take. Yours is likely integrated with other systems more... because it is always on.

Beta blockers do have a mild effect on easing anxiety.

This is confirmatory of the "FEAR always on" hypothesis. Beta-blockers are adrenal antagonists - so they would quiet FEAR. Tho not PANIC.

, I have adapted several ways to work around my social blindness.

You already do a lot of the stuff Ekman points to. It is interesting how susceptible you ARE to "contagious emotion" when you are perceiving at this detailed level. Perhaps that is one of the functions of PANIC - to modulate the mirror functions - to attach and then detach us from others. That would make sense of all the stuff neurotypical babies do with their mothers and caretakers mirroring facial expressions.

I probably have easier direct access to raw emotional systems without any story or very limited autobiographical narrative. Like I have great obsessive focus ability, it could simply be that I'm merging with the raw SEEKING emotional systems, and it's easy for me to cut or limit the circuitry to the rest of the emotional systems.

This absolutely seems to be the case. And the narrative thing is really really interesting. Are you generally a more visual than verbal thinker? I ask because I am the polar opposite. I can't revisualize worth a damn. I think in patterns primarily, then sounds.

Honestly, despite my emphasis on Panksepp here, the thinker who has most influenced how I understand all this stuff is Temple Grandin, who is absolutely brilliant, and possibly the most talented observer of human (and other animal) behavior ever.

And OMG, Valentino, I cannot imagine how challenging it would be to find a therapist would would be up to understanding you. You are too smart, for one thing, and you are not neuro-typical for another. Not hopeless, but definitely challenging.

 

[Valentino]

Just a short revisit to the topic of how neglect can be like an invisible abuse.

Autism is sometimes considered a development disorder, so the lack of connectivity in the brain either contributes to the disorder, and/or the disorder limits connectivity development.

But it might be quite similar to insecure attachment which has origins from Developmental Trauma Disorder which isn't an official DSM diagnosis, but Dr. van der Kolk and other trauma and/or attachment researchers have been pushing for addition of a 'DTD' diagnosis.

DTD or childhood insecure attachment might also create brain connectivity issues or 'dark areas of the brain'. Which could make autism brains and DTD brains like cousins, one originates more from nature (genetic) other is more from nurture (environmental).

Anyway, this blog is chock full of entries exploring attachment theory, development trauma, adult attachment disorder, brain science, etc. This looks like the author is sharing insights from her own healing journey with a ton of self-help and self-research effort:
http://attachmentdisorderhealing.com/

like a category mistake to me somehow. That there is something essentially different about active abuse and passive neglect. I need to go back and look at those posts I think. This does seem to be a blind spot with me.

The current social norm is to overlook and dismiss the power of neglect. I think I'm seeing aspects of that same dynamic going on in the current heated thread of "Why Can't Some of Us Talk on the Forum", weaker voices are trying to share or address feelings that come of neglect, while stronger voices are countering with dismissals and rationalizing judgments against weaker feelings as distorted thoughts. Essentially coming from disorganized attachment, I see flavors of reactive, ambivalent and avoidant attachment in the responses. Unfortunately I think many are unconsciously reacting from EP tiggers, because many are attached to the concept of this 'forum', and it's easy to perceive the discussion as a threat to 'the forum' (source of soothing CARE for overloaded PANIC/GRIEF circuitry).

Back to attachment theory and neglect, this is a blog entry excerpt describing some mechanics of childhood neglect:

At birth we are biologically waiting for input from adults around us to ‘serve and return,’ a back and forth interaction that literally shapes the architecture of the infant brain,” report Dr. Jack Shonkoff, M.D., Director of Harvard’s Center on the Developing Child and his colleagues in a 2012 video “The Science of Neglect.” “It begins when a child looks at something, observers something, that’s the serve. The return is when the parent responds to the child. When serve and return is broken, you literally are pulling away the essential ingredients for the development of human brain architecture… When a baby is not attended to, that is a sign of danger to the baby’s biological systems, so its stress systems are activated. In a brain that is constantly bathed in stress hormones, key synapses, the connections between nerves, fail to form in critical regions of the brain.
--- full blog post here: http://attachmentdisorderhealing.com/substance-abuse-or-survival/

and the referenced overview video from http://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/multimedia/videos/inbrief_series/inbrief_neglect/

and reminder of the 'still face experiment' showing a child's PANIC/GRIEF circuits triggered simply by the mom responding with 'still face' avoidant attachment.

I will try to respond to rest of the recent flow of this discussion later today. Thinking deeper about the theory that my brain is stuck with FEAR/FREEZE circuits on, led me to consider my default behavior as very reptile/vertebrate like, while neurotypical social bonding is much more mammalian (PANIC/GRIEF vs RAGE) like.

 

[Pencil]

EP tiggers

This is the cleverest typo imaginable! These triggers are bouncy Tiggers.

 

[Eleanor]

What a happy EP would look like? :DSorry:stop:. Back to discussion.:watching::geek: