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News Why It's So Hard To Talk To White People About Racism

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I have a suggestion go to broadcastify dot com. Under Listen hit browse feeds. Put in zip code 38117 and find Memphis Police and Shelby County Sheriff. Click on that, we don't use very many codes and just listen for awhile. Last night Halloween just one precinct was holding 16 calls on a normal day they are often holding 4 or 5.
 
I am now issuing a legit warning. Stay on topic or create a thread for racial profiling within law enforcement or law enforcement practices in general.

Off-shoot threads... they're awesome. Please make one if you want to keep explicitly going on about that topic. There is obviously interest.

I'm guilty, too. I keep posting information I find about institutional racism, forgetting that this thread is really about why it's hard to discuss. Fitting, given the topic, that we are struggling to maintain focus. ;)
 
I strayed because egregious statements were made about a group of people who are my brothers. I will try to stay on topic.

I did a word search Institutional I got lots of hits but nothing about studies. The one that you referenced spouts disconnected stats in a format meant to be funny or ironical. There was another referenced and it was some play.

I have posted many sources earlier in this thread that is evidence supporting that institutionalized racism exists.

Plays and cartoons are not sources. Institutional Racism are laws and statutes that prevent blacks from marrying whites. Neighborhood Covenants that prevent black people moving into an area is a type of institutional racism. Sheriffs not hiring black deputies is also one.

Institutional Racism cannot exists in today's society. Try it and there will be ACLU lawyers parachuting in from planes.

One of the reasons it's hard for white people to talk about race is people without any justification scream racism at the drop of a hat. Institutional Racism is real because we say so. How do you argue with that....how can there be a discussion when irrational information is thrown down like a gauntlet.
 
I could have sworn I posted a journalistic investigation into whether there were racist preferences at play in the housing market, reported by This American Life.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/house-rules

Here is a more recent one I'm pretty sure I never posted about racism in school districting/integration in schools:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with

Part two:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/563/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-two

I know I've posted this before, but while I'm archiving This American Life reporting, act one of this episode is about the school-to-prison pipeline beginning in preschool discipline:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/538/is-this-working

(another ETA)

Here's a source that says institutionalized racism. I think I've heard of those Supreme Court guys... they're supposed to be a sharp bunch, right?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/25/supreme-court-institutional-racism-is-real.html

...Another ETA

I've probably said it before here. It's difficult to talk to white people about institutionalized racism because... as the comic outlines, white privilege is the privilege to be ignorant of these factors being at work at all. White people do not have to worry about the same influences working upon them as POC do, and they feel personally attacked when others attempt to show them the privilege that they have. Furthermore, it is threatening to white populations to be told that they have this advantage, because it might mean that--gasp--the world is not fair, and they are benefitting from it.

I think white people are extremely threatened by the idea that they have privileges that should be given equally to all parties, just as men are threatened by the idea that gender inequality is still a thing that needs further correction in society.
 
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I strayed because egregious statements were made about a group of people who are my brothers. I w...
I may have issues with the term white privilege due to the connotations of the word privilege, but I promise you, institutionalized racism exists. Where? Let's forget police profiling for a moment. The one I am most familiar with is the schools.

In my husbands years of education, I have heard many anecdotes from him where he was told to dumb it down for the black kids. He has always taught in schools where the majority of students were black. He has heard principals say that black kids can't learn or that they are not as smart as white kids.

He tells of one school that brought in a woman in as a guest speaker who beat the legal system after she got caught dealing drugs. The school thought this was someone the students could relate too. They labeled her a hero. Any school that served a larger portion of white students, would have 1) never assumed they had to bring in a drug dealer to find someone the kids could relate too. 2) thought it was anything but a horrible idea to begin with.

My husband always says the problems with black schools is the expectations. They lower the expectations. If you raised the expectations students would meet those raised expectations but because the expectations are that they will fail the lower expectations, they do.
 
Why it's so hard to talk to white people about racism?

Because we get defensive.

And yes, it sucks to have inherited chapter upon chapter of outright privilege - as in, whites can vote, whites can own property, whites can eat where they want, use what water fountains they want, sit where they want - I'm not those white people, I'm me.

But that's my racial burden.

It is not, in my opinion, heavier than the burden of having been prohibited from doing those things.

Having freedoms/opportunities that others do not: that is social privilege.

It is the privilege of the wealthy to go to school where they want, live where they want, eat what they want when they want it, and be the consumers of luxury goods. Having the privilege does not mean they exercise it. It simply exists.

Whatever race has historically had the power to determine the access, the laws, the economics - that is the privileged race. In America, that's anglo-saxon, recognized visually as "white".

Regardless of whether that privilege can be exercised by all - it still exists as a concept in America. There are plenty of examples of how that privilege is exercised, daily. As long as we have those examples, we have white privilege.

This is the same as: as long as there is someone who will look at a black person in America and see them as inferior, lesser, not deserving of equal rights - then we have racism.

These are not concepts that disappear just because huge groups of people do not subscribe to them, or are not advantaged by them, or disadvantaged by them. These concepts can only disappear very slowly, as generation after generation passes by and society becomes more and more racially diverse, and hopefully, more and more enlightened. One can very easily argue that these concepts can never fully vanish, just because of human nature and how we deal with what we see as different.

It's so common to mix up wealth and whiteness. As in - "where's my white privilege, I don't have the same access that other, more privileged whites do"

That's not what is being referred to, when we talk about white privilege. The example above refers to one of a few possible things: privilege of wealth, or of education, or of class, or of religion, or of dynasty. These are real things, that real people struggle against.

But they shouldn't be lumped in with privilege of race.

The other frustrating thing about white privilege - we can't turn it off. And I think many white people get really uncomfortable with that idea, because it doesn't always let us be who we'd like to be in the world. But it's a privilege that is conferred by the viewer, not the view-ee. And it's also why whites get upset over things like affirmative action - because we feel discriminated against, like our whiteness is somehow a problem.

Unfortunately - it was a problem for hundreds of years. So, yeah, it's still a problem. And there you go. I've lost opportunities to people of color, I used to have those thoughts - "oh, she wouldn't be here if she weren't the diversity candidate" - I'm not at all proud to admit that. But now, I think of it as taking one for the team - the team being, the human race. Because America certainly won't get to the other side of the race divide without taking turns sitting at the back of the metaphorical bus.

That's what I believe.
 
Just dragging my offshoot thread from a few months ago, back to this thread.

Is it actually "privilege" or is it more a case of less oppression?

The classical liberal "class analysis" which was later aped and twisted by Marx, has two classes in society:
the rulers and

The ruled.

Ruler implies coercive, as opposed to leadership, which can be by voluntary acceptance and accreditation, or voluntary contract ( not to be confused with the Hobbesian idea of a " social contract ", that no one but an idiot would ever consent to).

That force is legally used by one side (rulers and their punitive agents) but even self defence against the plunder and attacks by rulers and their agents, is legally denied to the ruled...

Shows that there is no consent, that the interaction is to the benefit of one, at the expense of the other.

In consensual interactions, both sides expect to gain more than they give up, I value the coffee, more than the money I pay for it. The cafe owner values the money I pay, more than she values the coffee she sells me. If we didn't, we wouldn't do the deal.

That doesn't imply that all of the ruled are equally abused:

" but miss Scarlet, we's house slaves"

I think we've all had experience on an individual level, of Someone who stirs sh!t between people, then offers themselves as the solution.

It is no different on the scale of rulers. The phrase "Divide and rule" goes back at least to Roman times.

Each and every government has at some time, set one group against another, and offered itself as peacekeeper and protector.
 
There was a thriving system of voluntary Sunday schools in the British carribean community,

In an attempt to correct the low expectations and poor outcomes of the British state sector education system.

James Tooley, prof of education at Newcastle University, has a special research interest in low cost (and often stealth) private schools in African and Asian slums. I think he has a couple of good Ted talks up.

Minority communities (or at least some people in them) are far from passive in the face of low expectations and failing coercively provided services.

Similarly, it is an open question as to whether later bad behaviour was by the same group, or whether it was simply false flags in order to discredit and smear the group. The "panthers" originated as a cop watch group, to follow, record and if necessary interpose between abusive cops and the black community.

Similar groups, who managed to maintain their good name, operated as the "deacons for defence" in southern black communities.
 
Is it actually "privilege" or is it more a case of less oppression?
I see your point; but it's hard to look at the historical pattern of colonization and not see that, racially, there were a lot of white folk doing the oppressing. Within the intricacy of US class and racial divides, there is certainly a complex class system that always favored the mayflower pilgrims - so white folks from England would oppress white folks from Ireland, Germany, etc, etc.

But in a broader sense, our white ethnography oppressed (and slaughtered) the native american in order to have the privilege of property. That's a big part of how our story works, here in the US.

At the end of the analysis, some one (or some group) always calls themselves 'king of the hill', and has the maximum power to oppress - which I'd think is linked directly to the maximum power of privilege.
 
Hi Joey,
I'll agree to a point. The most aggressive elite has certainly tended to be, initially new England calvanists, and later, new England, or at least, north eastern, post millenialist pietist (as opposed to liturgicals, such as Roman Catholics or Lutherans) Christians.

In both cases, religious assumptions strongly fed into the elite's treatment of others. The particular views concerned the "last days"

In the case of the Calvinists, they assumed universal damnation, apart from an "elect" few, for whom their god's favour would be reflected in greater success in this life.

The elite who assumed that they were the elect, began to demonstrate the level of contempt in which they held the rest of humanity, when the first Quakers began to show up in north America, and began to troll those who assumed to be god's favoured few.

The results included lashing naked to carts and whipping through town, caging and starving, branding and mutilation, banishing during winter, and ultimately, murder.

It is illuminating to look at the very different relationship between colonists and indigenous people, and the differences in land transactions between say Massachusetts as an example of the Calvinists, and New Amsterdam as an example of Lutherans, where new Amsterdam purchased land.

Similarly Rhode island and Pennsylvania, both largely Quaker, enjoyed peaceful and consensual relationship between settlers and indigenous people.

Regarding the various causes of the revolt. There was a prohibition against settling more than 200 miles from salt water.

George Washington, just happened to be the biggest land speculator in the colonies. Vested interests?

Vested interest would certainly go part way to explaining the claim by the Fe'ral government which emerged from the coup d'etat of the constitutional convention, of ownership of all land from coast to coast.

Anyway, regarding the Indian wars, and genocide.

Even as early as the war between the states, there was at least one railway speculator, using union soldiers to murder indigenous people along the proposed path of a rail track.
It is interesting that the tax funds ( not least the Morrill Tarrif, paid predominantly by the south and benefitting north eastern industrialist cronies, by making imported manufactured goods more expensive, hence less able to compete with inefficient American manufacturing. Dishonest Abe was elected on a pro tariff platform, his later support for abolition of slavery, appears very half hearted in his letters)

Anyway, tax funds were used to fund the breaking of treaties, and slaughter of indigenous peoples ahead of land grants, massive subsidies and restrictions on settlement outside of railroad corridors.

The beneficiaries, in a massive way, were the crony railroad speculators, and the politicians who got kickbacks from them. Everyone else, whether a half starved surviving Lakota, or a frontier farmer, was a loser.

Were the railroads worth it?

In a word, no.

Only the north pacific, which had been built without subsidy or land grants, was able to run at a profit. The others were simply massive pits to throw other people's money into.

Taking a quick look at the south.
It is unlikely that large scale slavery would have been viable without the largest slave owners ( some of the largest slave owners were free blacks, who's holdings rivalled those of the largest white slaver owners) being able to push the cost of providing slave patrols onto the non slave owners, and being able through the fugitive slave acts, to have runaways forcibly returned from the north.

Incidentally, the slave memoirs from the Fe'ral writers project of the 1930s, make fascinating reading. The history is far, far more complex than is commonly taught, eg, an old gentleman named Prince, in the Mississippi volume, reported that he frequently rode with the Klan, that it was the only way to keep order ( during "reconstruction"). Other testimonies lend support to the idea that that first Klan movement was far more anti carpet bagger than specifically anti black.

Jumping forward to the mid and late 19th century
The critical religious belief of the post millenialists, was that man had to establish their god's kingdom on earth for 1000 years, before christ could return and the faithful be rewarded on judgement day...

So they needed to stamp out sin, and the main chosen tool for that was the coercive machinery of government.

Interestingly they found sin in places that the bible never did, eg alcohol, jesus (and about 30 other middle Eastern offspring of unions between virgins and gods) was supposed to have turned water into wine... The progressives sought and achieved alcohol, and drug prohibition.

The fingerprints of special interests are there too, eg of the Dupont family, developers of nylon ropes and synthetic plastics... Who funded and produced the hillariously counterfactual and hideously racists film " reefer madness " and steered through the legislature the prohibition of their chief natural alternative base for ropes and plastics, hemp.

In Britain and America, black people,as the most clearly visible minority, tend to have come bottom in the chain of oppression and exploitation

But apart from elites and select special interest groups, every one else has been getting robbed, misled and variously used as cannon fodder or fed to special interest groups too.

It's interesting on the anarchist sites how many former soldiers whove had their fill of the elites wars are showing up, and how many Africans, inspired by Ayitty's accounts of indigenous African stateless orders, are showing up too.
 
I think I've heard of those Supreme Court guys... they're supposed to be a sharp bunch, right?

All of the facts you want me to see are only opinion pieces. The Supreme Court one is from ...really ..."The Daily Beast".....really. I'll take their opinion pieces as fact when you take " Alex Jones Infowars" as gospel.

The case is interesting but even it is based on "disparate impacts". Disparate defined: is things so unlike that there is no basis for comparison. They gathered stats that appear to show discrimination so OMG it must be true.

but I promise you, institutionalized racism exists.

I keep hearing it exists it really, really, does look at this anecdotal evidence. I did find one instance of Institutional Racism. Google...
Instructor at Harris-Stowe gets almost $5 million in racial discrimination suit
 
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