Other Developing anti social personality disorder

[Weemie]

Yes, in my childhood and teenage years - though, uncaught.

Was this violent criminality (robbery, assault/battery, threatening, rape, murder, etc), or theft/drug use?

All my friends deserted me.

They deserted you because you told them to seek therapy (per your other answer)? Why would this have caused them to desert you?

I apologize in emails (for example) but don't really mean it - it's all a façade.

Have you ever felt remorse for any of the things you've done to cause harm to others?

No, but I do think that if I'd act out I'd be put in prison and so I push feelings/impulses away and self harm due to this.

So it sounds like you have a good understanding of the consequences of your behavior, and are able to modulate your actions as a result of this. That's a good indicator that you have solid impulse control, which is another diagnostic criteria for ASPD - a lack of impulse control, reckless disregard for the safety of yourself and others, etc. Can you hold a job? What's your highest level of education? How long have you been able to keep steady employment? (1yr, 2yrs, etc).

Another diagnostic factor is personal responsibility - someone with ASPD lacks responsibility and prefers not to undertake tasks that involve effort - such as employment. Much of the time, people with ASPD have a poor occupational history and tend to job-hop after 1 or 2 years, or to find work where they don't need to expend a lot of energy. Another way that is manifested is something known as a "parasitic lifestyle" which is to find someone else (your parents, a spouse, etc) to live with (kind of like mooching/freeloading off of them - hence the name) so that you don't have to worry about employment at all.

None of this is intended to be judgmental for the record. I thought I had ASPD for a long time, because I met a good portion of this criteria and still do. Mine ended up being schizoid personality disorder, but a side effect of that is I am extremely familiar with ASPD and its causes and differential diagnoses. One of the differential diagnoses for ASPD is actually PTSD, especially in men. Given that you're on a PTSD forum, it's worth pointing out.

But this is basically what I'm talking about when I say that your therapist is spouting bullshit. You don't "become antisocial" after having a strong feeling. That has nothing to do with ASPD at all. If you have ASPD, strong stressors will probably result in an exacerbation of your symptoms. But you don't "become" anti-social. You already would be anti-social. ASPD is all about your behaviors, and what you're doing. And, while a psychopath would undoubtedly be diagnosed with ASPD if it were relevant, most people with ASPD are not psychopaths. They are two separate things.

Do you frequently disregard the rules of society, the law, and other people? Are you frequently getting into fights, getting in trouble, losing friends, etc? Are you able to hold a job, live independently, etc? Those are the things you should be looking at if you're genuinely considering ASPD. It might be that you do have it, but I wouldn't listen to anyone who claims you'll "become anti-social" due to having strong emotions. That is not how it works. In fact, if you do have ASPD, strong emotions are probably not going to be a huge factor for you - most (but not all) people with ASPD lack strong emotionality.

To answer the question in your OP, though - yes, I've encountered a lot of people with ASPD. I thought I was one of those people for many years, so I sought out those who were similar to me. While I don't have ASPD, I have a lot in common with those who do. Namely, the lack of emotions, the lack of remorse, the laziness, the anhedonia/alexithymia, irresponsibility and impulsiveness. SZPD/ADHD will cause that, too! So there's lots of other factors that could be at play.

Don't listen to a clinician who isn't very careful about their diagnostic process and who throws out these terms in a manner that is frankly nonsensical.

 

[tofubreadcoriander]

Was this violent criminality (robbery, assault/battery, threatening, rape, murder, etc), or theft/drug use?

Theft. And some drug use like alcohol (although I'm not sure it was really drugs besides the alcohol - I was probably tricked into thinking it was). I also abused my dog (beaten him once by striking over his nose to the point he bled and threw him on the ground - both when he was little).

They deserted you because you told them to seek therapy (per your other answer)? Why would this have caused them to desert you?

They deserted me once I told them what happened to me. Prior to this I encouraged them to go to therapy by sharing what wonders it did for me. My trauma therapist said that there was countertransference involved.

Have you ever felt remorse for any of the things you've done to cause harm to others?

Not anymore.

So it sounds like you have a good understanding of the consequences of your behavior, and are able to modulate your actions as a result of this. That's a good indicator that you have solid impulse control, which is another diagnostic criteria for ASPD - a lack of impulse control, reckless disregard for the safety of yourself and others, etc. Can you hold a job? What's your highest level of education? How long have you been able to keep steady employment? (1yr, 2yrs, etc).

Well, it's more that I don't want to get beaten up or raped if I get into prison not that I fear prison. I can't hold a job, not anymore. My highest level of education is highschool but I copied on the exams to pass. Before all this, I was fully employed for 8 years.

Another diagnostic factor is personal responsibility - someone with ASPD lacks responsibility and prefers not to undertake tasks that involve effort - such as employment. Much of the time, people with ASPD have a poor occupational history and tend to job-hop after 1 or 2 years, or to find work where they don't need to expend a lot of energy. Another way that is manifested is something known as a "parasitic lifestyle" which is to find someone else (your parents, a spouse, etc) to live with (kind of like mooching/freeloading off of them - hence the name) so that you don't have to worry about employment at all.

This is where I find myself now. I avoid going back home, though, and stay homeless, because at home my mother is abusive.

None of this is intended to be judgmental for the record. I thought I had ASPD for a long time, because I met a good portion of this criteria and still do. Mine ended up being schizoid personality disorder, but a side effect of that is I am extremely familiar with ASPD and its causes and differential diagnoses. One of the differential diagnoses for ASPD is actually PTSD, especially in men. Given that you're on a PTSD forum, it's worth pointing out.

My trauma therapist said "there's little in there left" and diagnosed me with C-PTSD, extreme anxiety and dissociation.

But this is basically what I'm talking about when I say that your therapist is spouting bullshit. You don't "become antisocial" after having a strong feeling. That has nothing to do with ASPD at all. If you have ASPD, strong stressors will probably result in an exacerbation of your symptoms. But you don't "become" anti-social. You already would be anti-social. ASPD is all about your behaviors, and what you're doing. And, while a psychopath would undoubtedly be diagnosed with ASPD if it were relevant, most people with ASPD are not psychopaths. They are two separate things.

Well, yes. On the other hand, though, as I speak with people I find myself wanting to hurt them and this increases in violence. I once seeked help for child sexual abuse and as the therapist was talking to me I wanted to strangle her with my hands, however, I knew she would call the police should I've done that so I pushed the impulse away resulting me in staying silent and her basically saying "you've anxiety".

Do you frequently disregard the rules of society, the law, and other people?

I don't think I do but I also don't have much consideration for them either.

Are you frequently getting into fights, getting in trouble, losing friends, etc?

I avoid that by pushing away the impulse and self harm as a result of it.

Are you able to hold a job, live independently, etc?

No, I'm homeless and without a job. I'm attending college (for free) though it's hard to retain information and remember it (to learn).

Those are the things you should be looking at if you're genuinely considering ASPD. It might be that you do have it, but I wouldn't listen to anyone who claims you'll "become anti-social" due to having strong emotions. That is not how it works. In fact, if you do have ASPD, strong emotions are probably not going to be a huge factor for you - most (but not all) people with ASPD lack strong emotionality.

To answer the question in your OP, though - yes, I've encountered a lot of people with ASPD. I thought I was one of those people for many years, so I sought out those who were similar to me. While I don't have ASPD, I have a lot in common with those who do. Namely, the lack of emotions, the lack of remorse, the laziness, the anhedonia/alexithymia, irresponsibility and impulsiveness. SZPD/ADHD will cause that, too! So there's lots of other factors that could be at play.

Don't listen to a clinician who isn't very careful about their diagnostic process and who throws out these terms in a manner that is frankly nonsensical.

Most ASPD you'd see they act on their impulses that's how you tell they're ASPD. However in my case I mask it by self harming (pushing the impulse away and so I lure people into thinking I'm ok - example with child sexual abuse therapist).

 

[Weemie]

My trauma therapist said "there's little in there left"

Sounds like your trauma therapist is an asshole. But, based on what you've shared, their diagnosis seems apt. Even if you do have ASPD, that doesn't make you hopeless. You have demonstrated a clear capacity to control yourself, whether that's via internalizing aggressive impulses or not - it's still a form of control. Because you recognize that your impulses are harmful, you've done your best to determine how to contain them. Whether that's because you're afraid of consequences, that's still a very positive sign.

It means you are cognizant enough to protect yourself, which results in a reduction of externalized aggression. That results in the protection of others. That alone indicates there is plenty "left" in you. All of these disorders - ASPD, PTSD, dissociation, anxiety , etc - have an environmental causative agent: trauma. When we're traumatized, it affects our capacity to properly engage with society and alienates us from other people. It causes things like aggression, instability, unemployment, homelessness, criminality, addiction, etc.

And it creates the conditions that make it more likely to develop a personality disorder, or conduct issues, or violent impulses. You were hurt by others, so you interact with others through that lens. You anticipate threats, you have less energy to handle minor stressors, you interpret others' behavior as hostile, your personal relationships become disorganized, etc. It's a fact of life for almost everyone with PTSD, especially PTSD caused by developmental/childhood abuse.

Are you dysfunctional? Almost certainly. Are you hopeless and empty? Definitely not. After all, you have joined this forum, and are speaking with us. That's a great sign, it means you recognize that there is something within you that you wish to share with others, and for others to respond to that. That's a form of pro-social behavior, and again, indicates there is "something" left in you.

The purpose of me stating these things isn't to invalidate your concerns, nor to suggest they aren't legitimate, but rather to show you the points at which there is possibility for improvement.

As an aside, I can relate. I don't have many emotional sensations, I feel most of my aggressive impulses in my hands and chest. But I struggle with homicidal ideation quite often. The urges are so visceral that I sometimes find myself acting them out via gestures, as though nerves are firing muscle-memory. My ability to tolerate the sensory presence of another person face-to-face is basically zero. For no reason, certainly from nothing anyone is doing to me. Simply being in another person's presence for longer than 20 mins or so makes me aggressive.

BTW, am sorry to hear of your current situation. I live with my mom (essentially a parasitic lifestyle, as I indicated above - I am completely unable to retain employment) but once she goes, I will also have to deal with this reality as I am very much not capable of something as routine as holding a job or maintaining a home. Even as easy as my life currently is now, I often fantasize about leaving everything behind and going to live in the woods so I don't have to speak to others or fill out forms or take out the garbage.

It's a very tough dysfunction to deal with, indeed.

 

[tofubreadcoriander]

Sounds like your trauma therapist is an asshole.

Just to clarify. There are two therapists. 1 that said I would become anti social/a psychopath and the second (trauma therapist) I saw afterwards who said I've still "left a bit" in there.

But, based on what you've shared, their diagnosis seems apt. Even if you do have ASPD, that doesn't make you hopeless. You have demonstrated a clear capacity to control yourself, whether that's via internalizing aggressive impulses or not - it's still a form of control. Because you recognize that your impulses are harmful, you've done your best to determine how to contain them. Whether that's because you're afraid of consequences, that's still a very positive sign.

Yes, though, this being afraid of the consequences is not because I fear or realize the consequences themselves, but more because I'm afraid of people doing harm to me.

It means you are cognizant enough to protect yourself, which results in a reduction of externalized aggression. That results in the protection of others. That alone indicates there is plenty "left" in you. All of these disorders - ASPD, PTSD, dissociation, anxiety , etc - have an environmental causative agent: trauma. When we're traumatized, it affects our capacity to properly engage with society and alienates us from other people. It causes things like aggression, instability, unemployment, homelessness, criminality, addiction, etc.

I feel like that sometimes. I look around and I see people that will not stop speaking. They socialize etc. I feel disconnected.

And it creates the conditions that make it more likely to develop a personality disorder, or conduct issues, or violent impulses. You were hurt by others, so you interact with others through that lens. You anticipate threats, you have less energy to handle minor stressors, you interpret others' behavior as hostile, your personal relationships become disorganized, etc. It's a fact of life for almost everyone with PTSD, especially PTSD caused by developmental/childhood abuse.

I have to protect myself from an anti social guy in my room at the shelter and it's soooo hard. I barely have energy to function day to day so putting boundaries against him non-stop is such a drainer.

Are you dysfunctional? Almost certainly. Are you hopeless and empty? Definitely not. After all, you have joined this forum, and are speaking with us. That's a great sign, it means you recognize that there is something within you that you wish to share with others, and for others to respond to that. That's a form of pro-social behavior, and again, indicates there is "something" left in you.

The purpose of me stating these things isn't to invalidate your concerns, nor to suggest they aren't legitimate, but rather to show you the points at which there is possibility for improvement.

Thanks. That feels validating.

As an aside, I can relate. I don't have many emotional sensations, I feel most of my aggressive impulses in my hands and chest. But I struggle with homicidal ideation quite often. The urges are so visceral that I sometimes find myself acting them out via gestures, as though nerves are firing muscle-memory. My ability to tolerate the sensory presence of another person face-to-face is basically zero. For no reason, certainly from nothing anyone is doing to me. Simply being in another person's presence for longer than 20 mins or so makes me aggressive.

BTW, am sorry to hear of your current situation. I live with my mom (essentially a parasitic lifestyle, as I indicated above - I am completely unable to retain employment) but once she goes, I will also have to deal with this reality as I am very much not capable of something as routine as holding a job or maintaining a home. Even as easy as my life currently is now, I often fantasize about leaving everything behind and going to live in the woods so I don't have to speak to others or fill out forms or take out the garbage.

It's a very tough dysfunction to deal with, indeed.

I'd have went to the woods, though I'd probably be dead in a few weeks as I'm bad at catching animals, preparing, cook, and preserve the food.

 

[tofubreadcoriander]

. Mine ended up being schizoid personality disorder

By the way, have you seen this resource? It might be useful:

 

[tofubreadcoriander]

Interesting video on ASPD (and autism)

 

[tofubreadcoriander]

Interesting video on ASPD (and bipolar)

 

[littleoc]

Oh, I love that channel!

 

[tofubreadcoriander]

Oh, I love that channel!

Just discovered it. The guy doing the interview is very legit. I like him.

 

[tofubreadcoriander]

Yep. I'm definitely a sociopath. Hmmm.

 

[abovedown]

What is your definition of anti social personality disorder? I feel you haven't described any symptoms of this personality disorder.

To me it feel you have received misinformation and are focused on a secret consequence of it. I have OCD as does my little brother, and at different points we both were scared we had developed or were going to develop ASPD.

Besides that, people with ASPD can be born with it, or taught it. Whatever. Either way, a diagnosis doesn't make them evil or a bad person. Just, if they get that diagnosis, now they have a means to seek treatment if they desire help. aka, it's not a sentence you'd not come back from, if theoretically that happened.

I'm not sure that therapist knew what they were talking about? Trauma doesn't necessarily cause personality disorders the way that that therapist seems to have suggested it. If anything, I think this might be a case of a therapist who was educated in a 70s line of thought (that was considered inaccurate then), and not in a way based on reality....?

In any case, if you think you have a personality disorder, by all means seek treatment. But you haven't described the symptoms of ASPD. You're describing symptoms like emotional distance/dissociation, maybe, but that's different.

Did you do anything to carry on the cycle of abuse you experienced...?

Sorry for all the ?s and uncertainty, I just very confused on how anyone has made this conclusion about you conditions and am wondering if maybe you have additional insight or if this therapist just said something without truly thinking on it.

I honestly thought the same when I read OP's post. I am not medically trained but a fear that you would suddenly develope aspd in your 30s seems somewhat unlikely. I think aspd developes when someone is growing up and takes years/decades to develope. Does the urge to hit someone feel good or does it feel like "What of I hit someone" or "what if I hit someone and I like it?" OCD can cause the feeling of emptiness too particularly if you are in the middle of ocd spike. Just being depressed or/and being a in a stressful life situation does that too.