Experiences With Sociopaths

[Queen Boudica]

So I have complex trauma (complext PTSD) whatever you want to call it. It seems that because of my childhood I am far more likely to fall victim to sociopaths. Because I accept bad behaviour towards me as normal.

Now, I think my soon to be ex H is a sociopath. I have been putting up with his behaviour for years and not realised it because of my complex trauma. I am beginning to see what it is that makes him a sociopath, but maybe I am wrong:

He just thinks about himself all the time. He does not care about how it affects others, as long as he gets what he wants. He does not think about what affect he is having. He is always right. But he thinks he is doing for everyone's good. In his head he is the best person who knows better and who is looking after everyone. Does not care that they are telling him it is wrong, that is actually hurting them. In his eyes it is justified and everyone else is wrong. He is in control because he knows best. His ideas about how things work are over and above everyone else's. As long as he gets his way, everything has to work around what he wants. He cannot consider anything else. He just does not hear anything else apart from his own thoughts and opinions.

It seemed clearer when it was in my mind so not sure I have conveyed it to paper very well.

I would like to hear from others who have had experiences of sociopaths. What they think sociopathic behaviour is ( and I know there is probably a pyschiatric definition of it in the DSV? (whatever that thing is called) or whatever, but that just reads like gobbledy gook to me a lot of the time, sorry :confused:)

Ok maybe a stupid post, but just trying to work this out. Need answers.

 

[sea]

He doesn't sound like a sociopath from what you have suggested. He might be a sociopath due to reasons that you haven't suggested, but from what you have said there he doesn't seem like one. You may be omitting behavior such as that in your most recent post insinuating that he physically abuses you. Those are behaviors more consistent with a sociopath than what you mentioned above. From what you mentioned above, he sounds like he might be narcissistic.

In any case, there are different levels of anti-social personality disorders. The first level is just that. Anti-social Personality Disorder or AsPD. That is defined loosely by the DSM as being comprised of these main criteria:

Anti-social Personality Disorder:

1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest; (doing illegal things)
2. deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure; (lying all the time)
3. impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead; (does things "on a whim", random behavior, doesn't bother to make plans)
4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults; (cranky, verbally or physically lashing out)
5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others; (not concerned with safety)
6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations; (doesn't bother with commitments. such as to a job, or in dealing with money)
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another. (doesn't feel guilty for wrongdoing)

B) The individual is at least age 18 years.
C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.

1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy. (doesn't feel emotions for other people, such as love/affection/pride/happiness/sadness etc. does however feel those emotions in relation to themselves. they will feel happy if they get something they want, but indifferent if you get something you want.)
2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations. (irresponsible, doesn't pay attention to rules, doesn't care for what's regular)
3. Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships. (doesn't have any long-lasting friends or partners)
4. Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence. (can only remain frustrated for a short period of time before throwing a tantrum or becoming violent)
5. Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment. (lack of ability to understand consequences, or to remember previous consequences. doesn't feel guilty.)
6. Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict. (blames everyone else for their actions)
7. Persistent irritability. (cranky, irate, disagreeable)

Sociopathy and psychopathy are generally similar disorders that are characterized by the following:

Lack of empathy, shallow emotions, lying and manipulativeness, impulsivity, irresponsibility, low tolerance for boredom, poor behavior controls, remorselessness, egocentricity and grandiosity (self-focused, self-important), intelligence (debated).

With that being said, sociopaths/psychopaths tend to be action-oriented, destructive, without care of consequences, abusive (physically, emotionally, sexually, whatever), and with an inability to experience empathy for other people.

That can present similarly to narcissistic traits, but sociopathic traits are inherently more unstable, volatile, and harmful than narcissistic traits. They often present as self-destructive, addicted, psychotic, sadistic individuals (Though some garden-variety sociopaths can function reasonably well in society, it is hard for them to hide their true destructive, abusive, volatile and sadistic personalities in the home environment).

This is the Hare checklist of psychopathy (a similar condition to sociopathy excepting that sociopaths are typically made, not born):

Factor 1
Aggressive narcissism

1. Glibness/superficial charm (may seem very charming and knowledgeable)
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth (believe they are exceedingly special or important)
3. Pathological lying (constantly lying)
4. Cunning/manipulative (will manipulate others for their own amusement or gain)
5. Lack of remorse or guilt (does not feel guilt for wrongdoing)
6. Emotionally shallow (any emotions that are sympathetic in nature - i.e: for someone else, such as love, interest, or tenderness are faked and shallow.)
7. Callous/lack of empathy (experiences no emotions for others aside from anger)
8. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions (blames others for wrongdoing)

Factor 2
Socially deviant lifestyle

1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom (does one thing for a limited amount of time before needing to move on to something else)
2. Parasitic lifestyle (leeches off of parents, spouse, family, etc. financially, relies on others to provide their needs)
3. Poor behavioral control (no self-control, no discipline, no structure)
4. Promiscuous sexual behavior (constant need for sexual relations, may cheat or have sex with multiple partners in the same day)
5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals (has no real plans for the future)
6. Impulsiveness (makes split-second, whimsical decisions based on their desires at the moment)
7. Irresponsibility (fails to understand how their actions impact others, so blames others)
8. Juvenile delinquency (repeated pattern of similar behavior in juvenile years)
9. Early behavioral problems
10. Revocation of conditional release (often denied parole or special privileges in institutionalized environments [prison, a hospital, etc] due to bad behavior)
11. Many short-term marital relationships (married a short timespan, multiple times)
12. Criminal versatility (arrested for many different things, or participates in many different illegal activities)

On the other hand, here is a basic criteria checklist for someone who displays symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) (believe they are talented, special, worthy of attention)
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love (focus on fantasies that revolve around being special and worthy of attention)
3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) (only relates to people they find of above-average worthiness)
4. Requires excessive admiration (needs to be the focus of positive attention at all times)
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations (expects other people or things to work for them just because they exist)
6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends (doesn't mind using others to get what they want)
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others (lack of ability to express sincere emotion about another person, only themselves)
8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her (jealous, envious of those who are better off)
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes (boast their superiority without merit, behave in an "upper class" fashion)

People with NPD are often abusive, manipulative, and damaging to everyone they come across due to their similar lack of empathy, and self-importance. As seen in many members who have PTSD from abuse by narcissists on this website, they are often abusive in the home environment as well. However, due to inherent differences in impulse control, behavior modification, self-destructiveness and volatility - narcissists are on the whole, a less dangerous species than the psychopath or sociopath.

There are lots of resources about both disorders out there. I took the checklists from the Wikipedia articles on all disorders. The words in italics/parenthesis are my attempts to tone down the dull explanations from the DSM into something a bit more comprehensive, and to explain accurately such terms as empathy, etc which are often misunderstood.

Anyway I hope any of that helps.

 

[Queen Boudica]

Forgot to say. He has no guilt, does not seem to feel real guilt when he has does something wrong. Comes up with a whole load of excuses and justifications, to make it seem like it was him doing it for my good. Gaslights. Says things like he is bothered he has done something, like punch me in the mouth and choke me. Bothered, does not express guilt to me.

And yes, I think narcissist also applies.

 

[mamachick]

I have (with certainty) been involved with 2 different sociopathic men. Both had never really been in trouble with the law, at least not in any criminal way. Both had filed bankruptcy (lots of people have though) but one did some hiding of assets and felt an entitlement. Both were very compulsive liars. They both had this sense of tremendous calmness when the crap hit the fan. One was a licensed counselor and not only had sex with clients, committed some torturous acts. The other had an obsession with guns. Both very charming and very manipulative. One was a "crazy maker" as I call it-(actually had me stalked so I would move in with him) and a detective was the first to suspect. The person that was actually caught would not tell who they did it for so he did not get in trouble for that but did have his license suspended. The other was a rescuer and encouraged me to be dependent upon him. He had a very good job and got himself fired for false workmans comp claims and other stuff.

In both cases, they presented very much as care-takers. Yes, who would want a care-taker, especially as I have always been very independent. A middle aged woman like me would, who was neglected as a child and never was really nurtured by anyone. They would know your favorite cookies, plan a romantic weekend, rub neck when it hurt, etc. The read people very well-know what you need before you do. Once you are hooked in is when it gets ugly. They can also fake empathetic emotions quite smoothly as they have been practicing a lifetime. They may seem to respond in all the right ways-then one day suddenly change, and could care less.

 

[Jacquie]

Liz. Whether you have PTSD or not. Someone punching you in the mouth or choking you is a no go zone. It doesnt matter if he is SORRY or BOTHERED. It matters that he either does it....or doesnt do it.

Sweetie you need to look at the ACTIONS not be so honed in on the motives.

A domestic violence perpetrator will usually punch you in the head one day and either blame you or say sorry the next day. But the point is.....he punches people in the head and thinks thats how you go about things.

You dont. Period. BE angry yes. GET angry yes. GET over it yes. Punch people and choke people no.

WHY: <== The why basket
WHAT: <== The what basket

Are you thinking if you can figure out WHY then you can head it off at the pass? Its not your job to head it off at the pass. Its his job to keep his fists to himself.

I remember my husband coming at me with clenched fists for the last time. I was ironing denim jeans. For some reason I wasnt scared any more. As he came closer I picked up the superhot iron and faced it towards him and said "If you do you are going to remember this day for the rest of your life every time you look in a mirror" He dropped his arms, turned and left the house. I calmly went back to ironing the jeans. I left him soon after that.

Thats not how families are supposed to be.

 

[intothelight]

I don't know how to write this properly, as this whole subject triggers the hell out me. I was married to a psychopath. Not my diagnosis, came from the court. Not insane, could stand trial. Important to know when you have children, just what you are dealing with.

Knowing what I know now, I would have disappeared with my children off the face of the earth. (different ID's, different country, different life). May sound extreme, but the price of not knowing what I was dealing with was way too high. Psychopath is the extreme end, but narcissist and sociopaths can damage beyond repair. Not always but the potential is there.

Know your enemy.

 

[doglover]

I was briefly involved with a very troubled person who was also very charming. He abused drugs but rationalized it as a kind of expansive esoteric self-exploration. I think he was a closet alcoholic also - one time he came to pick me up and looked like he was wearing lipstick, sort of. Realized later, I'd had a glass of red wine and saw how it stained my lips - so put two and two together.

He was never violent, but then I wasn't involved with him very long. Very charming. Very focused on keeping up appearances. Lied frequently, sometimes right to my face. He also had a really convincing emotional story about his past that triggered my caretaking impulses. He also had a lot of control issues around food. He'd been traumatized by a specific event in adolescence. He had an obsession with guns and was big on buying himself high quality things.

One time after I was generous with emotional care, he gave me an object. Something he'd already had for himself, not a new gift. I remember how my narcissistic mother would use material items instead of giving to meet emotional needs. Reminded me of that.

One time I was out with him and his buddies. I was slightly out of earshot but I think he made a joke at my expense. Based on me looking at him after everyone laughed. Most of his responses were as described by brat17 - very good at anticipating what I wanted and needed. Very smooth. But there was a hint of hollowness or superficiality to all his emotional displays. Contrived. Manufactured.

I think he had some narcissism or maybe sociopathy. The narcissism would make more sense, considering my upbringing. It's scary that I found this to be the most fulfilling relationship I've had in some time. He was good at helping me feel. It was a really intense on-again off-again thing. I guess one clue to the problems is how unhurt he seemed by me saying yes for a week then no for a few weeks, then okay again.

 

[James B.]

This thread has relevance in my life...

due to a high instance of these personality types in my immediate family: dad and older brothers. It is also relevant because I was recently employed by a person I knew from my high school days, and he fits the (rather extreme) criteria of sociopath to an absolute T. And, when you meet one of these types, and spend any amount of time with them, it is immediately evident that there's a real problem with their perception of things. No question.

Amazing, and this guy's wife knows and intimated she knows, he is mentally ill. My advice if you come across one of these types, and find yourself involved at any level (including as your employer) is to cut your losses and back away carefully, if you can.

sea, that's a very good list, thanks for posting.

 

[Sethe]

In both cases, they presented very much as care-takers. Yes, who would want a care-taker, especially as I have always been very independent. A middle aged woman like me would, who was neglected as a child and never was really nurtured by anyone. They would know your favorite cookies, plan a romantic weekend, rub neck when it hurt, etc. The read people very well-know what you need before you do. Once you are hooked in is when it gets ugly. They can also fake empathetic emotions quite smoothly as they have been practicing a lifetime. They may seem to respond in all the right ways-then one day suddenly change, and could care less.

This sounds like my ex husband, except throw in the 'you're not doing enough' statements among other things.

 

[Queen Boudica]

Are you thinking if you can figure out WHY then you can head it off at the pass? Its not your job to head it off at the pass. Its his job to keep his fists to himself.

I remember my husband coming at me with clenched fists for the last time. I was ironing denim jeans. For some reason I wasnt scared any more. As he came closer I picked up the superhot iron and faced it towards him and said "If you do you are going to remember this day for the rest of your life every time you look in a mirror" He dropped his arms, turned and left the house. I calmly went back to ironing the jeans. I left him soon after that..

Thanks Jacqui.

Oh I know he is out of my life now. He has done to much and I am watching him now what he does and says in a different light.

I will still use the excuse that the violence did not happen that often, that is still in my head, but I know it was unacceptable now and I know he is not taking it seriously, he really has no guilt. And it is the risk that he will do it again and in front of the children, which happened last year and he still thinks that is just one of those things that happens. I provoked it. Anyway, no point in going over that. I am now woken up to his behaviour, now realise my complex trauma has led me to accept it and that is not going to happen anymore.

I am just trying to work out my enemy as Intothelight said. I have children. At the moment, he is playing Mr Perfect, and he is spending much more time with the kids and doing stuff with them, that he would never do before. He is mostly being super nice to me.

But we are separating. He is just not accepting it in his head. He has found somewhere now. So hopefully he will be out of the house next week.

What I am worried about his how he will be with the children, what his behaviour will be with them as they get older and more defiant teenagers. Difficult for me to explain. Just have to be on guard with him and I want to really understand what I am dealing with. Plus as it finally dawns on him that I am really serious about this separation, that no amount of nice behaviour from him is going to get me back. I think he is waiting for me to fall flat on my face because he thinks I am so useless, I cannot manage on my own. (And to be honest, I do think I am useless and I do not know how I am going to manage, but I am winging it, taking it a step at a time and determined I will get there, if in my own slow, painful way. I hope so)

What you did with your husband was very brave. See another reason why I have to leave him. If I think of me doing that, holding up that iron whilst he came at me with a fist. At those moments he is so out of control that he would have got that iron from me (I am not very strong) and he would have used it on me.

Anyway, as I said, I will still need to deal with him because of the kids. There is no evidence of what he has done. Just my word. I have to work with the system, I cannot run and I can't do that to the kids, unless he really did turn nasty.

I am thinking at the moment, his need to look like the Mr Perfect and the good guy, to everyone around him, will stop him from turning really nasty. I don't know, that is probably very naive. But I am trying to get my head round this.

 

[Queen Boudica]

This sounds like my ex husband, except throw in the 'you're not doing enough' statements among other things.

Yes, my husband presents himself as the caretaker and the "you're not doing enough" - plenty of that. He always is doing more than me and does it better.

 

[Queen Boudica]

Know your enemy.

Sorry you had to go through that Deb. Can only imagine how bad it would have been. But so glad you are in a happy relationship now.

Know your own enemy, that is what I want to make sure. I do that. I am always trying to believe the best in him, but there is too much now that points to something very nasty. Just still not sure how bad. But definitely bad enough for me to get rid of him.