How does your t approach your anxiety in sessions?

[barefoot]

People have helped me in this thread - including you! The tone of your last post though felt patronising. And I hadn’t brought anything up about needing to be perfect, so I’m not sure why you leapt to that assumption.

I’m not trying to have a row with you or get into some kind of defence-off with you.

I find a lot of your posts (not just on my threads) interesting and useful. Just not that one. But I realise it probably would have been kinder of me not to mention it.

 

[joeylittle]

The tone of your last post though felt patronising.

I'm just going to extrapolate off of this, in re: your concern about your T getting defensive.

I'm not saying that she isn't. I'm not there, and can't know. My question would be, how much do you think you are projecting what she's doing, based on your way of hearing what she is saying...I can see how you took that post as being patronizing. But in actuality, it's not. Two different ways of communicating sometimes manage to not meet in the middle. I do see it around here a lot, but it's mostly to do with the written word not conveying tone especially well. In 3-D life, it can also be because of how much internal noise we are carrying into a conversation - it muffles our ability to really hear just what's being said. (Dunno if I'm explaining that very well...)

You could preface a convo with your T about this, by laying out exactly what you are worried about in bringing up some topics, and what you've observed in the past from her and how you've interpreted it as being defensive - and then, you worry that you've harmed the relationship.

I also think it would be good to talk with her more about that "what do you need" moment. It was meaningful to you that she asked that, and you became aware of how long it had been since she asked it, and you had a strong reaction. There's a lot to unpack there.

 

[barefoot]

how much do you think you are projecting what she's doing, based on your way of hearing what she is saying

I think that's a fair question and I do fall into the trap of mind-reading a lot with my therapist, which can become quite anxiety-making. And, yes, I can get quite bogged down in particular choices of words or tone etc.

In terms of her defensiveness...there have been a few times when I have carefully (i.e. deliberately wording something in a neutral way, not wanting to come across as judgey/critical etc) tried to bring something up e.g. about the impact of something she has said previously. And she has reacted in a way that, to me, felt like she was angry. And each time, I was able to ask her if she was angry with me and she said no. And I would still feel very worried that things weren't ok between us because, although she had said she wasn't angry, her face, body language, the energy in the room etc all felt that something was then "off".

And, in addition to feeling worried that I had "done something wrong" or damaged the relationship somehow, I would also then feel quite...wary...of her, I guess. Because she/the space suddenly didn't feel so safe anymore. And because I then felt wary and it felt "not ok" that I had brought that subject up, I would then try to draw a line under it and change the subject. Which was hard to do, because it had been an important subject to me - that's why I had brought it up in the first place. And it was also hard because I then felt a bit anxious and upset and not very safe, so staying in the room and talking with her about anything at all at that point was quite a challenge. Because, really, I would then just want to go home.

Each time then, either later on in that session or at the start of the next session, she would try to go back to what we were talking about and encourage me to pick up where we had left off but I wouldn't want to (because I felt anxious about what had happened and how things now felt) so I would say that it was ok and that we didn't need to talk about it anymore. And each time she would then either just acknowledge or else sometimes apologise for getting defensive. So, she'd say something like "No, please, let's go back to it and talk it through – I promise I won't get defensive this time." But by then I was always convinced that I'd damaged the relationship and that I'd pissed her off and that what I'd said was wrong (or perhaps it wasn't wrong in itself but that I had been wrong to bring it up).

Sorry...a long explanation there! So...yes, I definitely do have a sensitivity to language/tone and a real tendency to over-think things and to get into unhelpful mind-reading about what was/wasn't meant etc. At the same time, I really don't think I am simply projecting the defensiveness thing on to her.

It's such a thing here that whenever anyone posts about something challenging with their T, everyone (including me!) piles in with "Talk to them about it - they will be glad you brought it up!" I get how that should be the case. My experience though, when its actually something to do with her, is that the conversation usually tends not to go very well.

I do see it around here a lot, but it's mostly to do with the written word not conveying tone especially well

Yes, I agree.

I haven't been in a great place lately and I was feeling pretty shitty last night (not that that is an excuse) - partly, I think, because I'd allowed myself to get sucked into a very frustrating thread (my own stupid fault!) elsewhere where reasoning had become quite a challenge! And, I finally stepped away from that thread having invested way too much time, energy and headspace in it and, off the back of that, and coming from a place of feeling very anxious and pretty shitty, I read a post on this thread, which felt patronising and snarky and I decided for once to say that that's how I felt about it. So, then I sent a pretty snappy post back - which isn't my normal style and which wasn't my finest hour and which wasn't deserved @UnicornSightings . I'm aware that my response last night was not very kind. I should have just not said anything, which is what I usually do when I read a post that gets my goat a bit for whatever reason!

In 3-D life, it can also be because of how much internal noise we are carrying into a conversation - it muffles our ability to really hear just what's being said. (Dunno if I'm explaining that very well...)

Yes, you are explaining it well – and I agree with that too!

I also think it would be good to talk with her more about that "what do you need" moment. It was meaningful to you that she asked that, and you became aware of how long it had been since she asked it, and you had a strong reaction. There's a lot to unpack there.

The thought of that is very anxiety-making and, for some reason, makes me feel teary.

 

[barefoot]

Now I’m worried that I’ve made my therapist sound awful :(:rolleyes:

 

[Deleted member 37474]

Now I’m worried that I’ve made my therapist sound awful :(:rolleyes:

Don’t worry about that. When we are symptomatic as you have been we all make people seem awful. I did that with my mom over the holidays. It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks in regards to your therapist other than you. She is for your healing. If she is helping you, that is all that matters.

 

[unstableAngel]

My anxiety is very high at the moment.

I had my first therapy session following Christmas break yeste...

I don’t have an answer, but wanted to share that my 1st session was exactly the same!! I went home & was essentially bedridden for 2 weeks (at least) and I didn’t go to my 2nd appt cause just the thought of it...OMG! There was NOT a chance in heck I was doing that again & again...for Hell if I know how long!!! I found out my insurance (thank the lawd) covers online therapy, cause I CAN NOT handle the 30 min drive, gotta get $ as she doesnt take cc/debit & the waiting area has a door to the outside that makes a Gawd awful noise everytime someone walks in. Seriously?!?! I need to be sedated to go to therapy...what tf

Now I’m worried that I’ve made my therapist sound awful :(:rolleyes:

I don’t think you made your T sound awful. This is a safe place to vent. I’m new to this therapy thing. I’ve been avoiding it my entire life. Been avoiding everything im fact. I feel I should be healed in like...idk maybe 10 sessions...less if possible. Or just a magic pill that fixes my brain. Why don’t they have that?!?? >:(

 

[joeylittle]

I really connect with a lot of what you are saying, @barefoot.

So, she'd say something like "No, please, let's go back to it and talk it through – I promise I won't get defensive this time."

At the same time, I really don't think I am simply projecting the defensiveness thing on to her.

You're definitely not projecting it if she's actually said "I won't get defensive this time". That's a dead giveaway. So, sure, you might be anticipating it sometimes when it's not there, or won't be forthcoming - but it's difficult to do otherwise when you have such firm experience with her actually admitting to it.

t's such a thing here that whenever anyone posts about something challenging with their T, everyone (including me!) piles in with "Talk to them about it - they will be glad you brought it up!" I get how that should be the case. My experience though, when its actually something to do with her, is that the conversation usually tends not to go very well.

You know, I'm going to say this - I do still think you and she need to work on your therapeutic alliance. And no, she might not be instinctively, automatically glad if you bring it up. The hope would be that she does know that it's a thing, and that there's some team-building for the two of you to do. I think the challenge for you in that team building process is to change the pattern of needing to adjust to her in a way that leads to you thinking you can't really be honest with her.

Now I’m worried that I’ve made my therapist sound awful

Not at all.

I am in something of a similar situation right now. I had an incredibly difficult time of it from last April to really the beginning of this January. Along the way, I started drifting away from my T, and he made some not-great choices in terms of how to communicate with me. It was made more difficult by my own work travel during that period, and his own challenges with his practice. It took me awhile, once we were able to be in a room together again, to start to try and articulate this stuff.

What did help me was staying in touch with the concept that I was wanting it to get better, and that it had been better in the past. I don't mean optimism, per se - more like doing my own cognitive work to make sure I was always balancing the thoughts. Like, "what evidence do I have that he is losing interest in me in a client? What's the evidence against? What are the events that set that chain of thoughts off in my brain? What is giving me the impression that he's not really listening? What feedback can I give him that would help?"

I think it's hard to get to the place of communication where you can believe often enough that you are on solid footing with the therapist, and therefore can express it when you are having trouble with the interpersonal aspect of the work.

I'm going to tag @Suzetig, just because on another thread the topic of the NHS and it's philosophies on the relational aspect of therapy came up...None of what I'm saying is helpful if your therapist, on a basic level, thinks that the therapist-client relationship is incidental. The way you describe her, it doesn't sound like that's her philosophy...but it's also probably a fair question - to ask her to talk about her goals generally in the therapist-client relationship, and her goals specifically vis-a-vis you.

 

[Suzetig]

The thought of that is very anxiety-making and, for some reason, makes me feel teary.

I wonder if that's because there seems to be a rift in the relationship which you're trying to mend by yourself? It sounds like your T really struggles with anything that suggests she's done something wrong - the initial defensive response - but after she's sat with it (and maybe thought through her response) she can cope with discussing it more easily. That, I imagine makes it very difficult for you to raise an issue with her and so you end up down playing, minimising or ignoring things that don't feel ok. I would guess its a strategy on her part to stop people giving her negative feedback (it may be totally subconscious on her part, I'm not saying it's purposeful so much as she's developed a way of relating that works to keep her safe).

When she says "lets go back to it, I won't be defensive", are you able to say that her initial response means you aren't able to talk about it. I've done this to some extent where someone has had a bad reaction to feedback I've given them where I've said something like "I value a good relationship with you and, in your shoes, I would want to know I've missed the mark however hard it was to hear - when you started crying and being really distressed it made me feel like I had done the wrong thing, so I don't feel comfortable bringing things to you now". In my case the issue couldn't be resolved but that kind of statement in therapy could (should) open the door to a conversation about how you do therapy when you aren't able to bring things knowing that she'll hear you. What else is she not hearing?

In terms of relational therapy, some Ts think that therapy is a treatment given to the client, not a two way relationship where the T is involved and impacted by the client. Your T sounds like they want to offer you a therapeutic relationship with their T self, not their actual person if that makes sense. I wonder if when you challenge or offer feedback you come close to the person your T is and the defensiveness is about them getting back into their professional head again - hence later on they can look at the issue without the initial defensive reaction.

I do think it's worth asking your T what their position is about the therapeutic relationship, e.g. is it a relationship of equals, is the relationship the vehicle for using methods and techniques to help healing or do they believe the relationship in and of itself is healing.

It would be worth you reading The Gift of Therapy by Irvin Yalom, it's a lovely, easy book written actually for therapists but he makes a good case for actively addressing what's happening in the relationship here and now as being representative of wider issues for the client. He's a strong advocate of the idea that it's the relationship that heals, regardless of modality - which is very much borne out in research.

 

[barefoot]

I feel I should be healed in like...idk maybe 10 sessions...less if possible. Or just a magic pill that fixes my brain. Why don’t they have that?!??

Yes, why don't they have a magic pill?! ;)

but wanted to share that my 1st session was exactly the same!! I went home & was essentially bedridden for 2 weeks (at least) and I didn’t go to my 2nd appt cause just the thought of it...OMG!

Just to clarify, it wasn't my actual first therapy session - just the first once since taking a break for Christmas. I've been working with this T for around three years.

Hope the online therapy option works out well for you.

 

[barefoot]

@joeylittle - thanks for sharing your recent situation. I'm sorry it has been a difficult few months for you in terms of communication with your therapist. It can certainly be incredibly stressful.

It is also reassuring, in a way, to know that other people still have these kinds of challenges in longer term therapeutic relationships. I'd never had therapy before I started seeing her and I think I sometimes (often!) worry that I have been working with her for three years or so and that I should be over this stuff now and be able to "just trust" that we're good.

You know, I'm going to say this - I do still think you and she need to work on your therapeutic alliance.

I think the challenge for you in that team building process is to change the pattern of needing to adjust to her in a way that leads to you thinking you can't really be honest with her.

After a rocky end of 2016/start of 2017 with her, I actually feel that we have been in a really good place together since then.

This issue doesn’t come up very often.

We have talked several times about the intimacy of therapy/being in relationship with her and how I find that very difficult and it creates a lot of anxiety for me. And conversations like that go fine. I mean, I find them excruciating and anxiety-making! But, relationally, it goes ok and she doesn't get defensive about things like that. Presumably because it's not me pointing to specific things related to her. When I’m saying something that’s more about her, that’s when she gets defensive and then it somehow all seems to end up on me, even though I am always careful to identify how I have contributed to a certain situation/what I have brought to the dynamic in this instance and I always name and own that really explicitly.

I guess, when she gets defensive in the way I described in my earlier post and when I feel impacted by that...I either shut down and just want to leave or else I tend to apologise and rush to assure her that I wasn't being critical and that I'm not blaming her for anything because I don’t want her to be annoyed with me or for things to not feel ok between us.

So...yeah...I suppose that, even when things feel good between us as they have for most of the past year, that is still lurking somewhere in the dynamic...that I fear her getting angry/defensive and that I then sometimes become quite grovelly to try to make things feel ok again (but then somehow resent her for that).

I think it's hard to get to the place of communication where you can believe often enough that you are on solid footing with the therapist, and therefore can express it when you are having trouble with the interpersonal aspect of the work.

Ain’t that the truth!

the NHS and it's philosophies on the relational aspect of therapy came up

She’s in private practice, not an NHS therapist. She is very relational and I know that she sees the therapeutic relationship as key.

I wonder if that's because there seems to be a rift in the relationship which you're trying to mend by yourself?

I don’t know... I don’t sense a big rift between us at the moment. And the original purpose of this thread wasn’t because I was annoyed with her and wanted to vent about her because we were heading for a fall out or something. it was to check whether my hope that she could help me reduce my anxiety in a session was realistic or whether I was expecting something that was unrealistic. Also, her normalising/validating/rationalising approach didn’t help that session but I wasn’t sure what - if anything - would have. So, I was curious about what other people’s Ts did in those circumstances.

So...I don’t feel that we are anywhere near rupture territory (though you may not have meant full-on rupture when you said rift) at the moment. But I suppose, I do have a lurking worry about potential future ruptures happening...

The last major one was this time last year around fees and it was awful and went on for a long time. It was a very bruising experience and, if I’m honest, I still don’t think I have fully got over that, even though we moved on and things have been good since. So, that it something that still nags at the back of my mind a bit. But that’s my fault for holding on to it.

That, I imagine makes it very difficult for you to raise an issue with her and so you end up down playing, minimising or ignoring things that don't feel ok.

Yes, I think this happens. Because, in the end, I did say last week about how, the previous week I had hoped I’d leave session feeling less anxious and the opposite happened so it had got me thinking about what I could do differently in future to reduce my anxiety when it is so off the scale etc etc. But I was very aware that I was walking on egg shells and being very careful about not making anything sound directed at her. In fact, I think I put the onus on me - “what can I do differently” - and I think I even told her that I wasn’t saying anything about her and I wasn’t meaning anything she did was wrong. Sigh...

When she says "lets go back to it, I won't be defensive", are you able to say that her initial response means you aren't able to talk about it.

No, I don’t ever do that. I just shut down/shut the conversation down. Or, as mentioned above, I grovel around trying to reassure her that I wasn’t meaning to criticise her so I’m sorry if it came across that way...

God, I sound like such a pathetic wimp!

And I’m really not like this in other relationships. I am so not a groveller!

Your T sounds like they want to offer you a therapeutic relationship with their T self, not their actual person if that makes sense. I wonder if when you challenge or offer feedback you come close to the person your T is

Maybe...I’m not sure. I think I know quite a bit about her personal life - as much as anyone who has a good therapist with good boundaries is probably likely to know. And I get the feeling that she has shared those things to help build relationship with me. So, I have some glimpses into her life and, I think, into how she is as a person, even though she is clearly in T mode with me.

I think that feeling criticised and getting defensive about that is perhaps her stuff getting jangled. Hence, yes, on reflection she can put her therapist hat firmly on and think that it may have been a little blip in her self-management.

I do think it's worth asking your T what their position is about the therapeutic relationship, e.g. is it a relationship of equals, is the relationship the vehicle for using methods and techniques to help healing or do they believe the relationship in and of itself is healing.

She definitely sees the relationship as key and that we are working in partnership.

And, ironically, she will sometimes encourage me to say how I am feeling towards her or will invite a discussion about what’s happening in our dynamic. But I think, when she does that, she is approaching things from a “therapist as object” approach where my feelings wouldn’t really be about her. When I’m a bit more like “no, it’s actually about you in this situation right now” - not that I would ever say it like that - that’s when things get very rocky.

The Gift of Therapy by Irvin Yalom

I’ve just looked it up on Amazon and have seen that I bought it three years ago! It was probably you who recommended it then! Thanks for the nudge - I’ll have a read.

 

[Suzetig]

But I was very aware that I was walking on egg shells and being very careful about not making anything sound directed at her.

Ok, so that will create a rift - I'm not talking about a rupture where there's a clear incident or issue, I'm talking about the air not being entirely clear because you're worried about how she'll react.

A relational therapy isn't so much about what you know personally about your T (although self disclosure may be part of a strong, longer term relationship), it's about how you know them. By way of example I have a very strong therapeutic relationship with my T, there's nothing I can't talk about if I chose to do so and I can reasonably predict how she will be. Usually my anxiety about telling her something is because I have judged myself in the situation already and feel I've done something wrong. Any time I've raised something between us that I feel is a big deal she's been really measured and open about it - maybe explored what I think has happened or clarified what she was thinking or trying to do in the situation but I've always came away feeling heard and supported.

That's what I mean by having a relationship with her as opposed to her professional, therapist persona - she is fully herself, doesn't filter her responses to me but is very predictable and safe. She does have a detached, professional persona which I did see in the early days but it's been a long time since she's been that way with me.

You really need a safe therapeutic relationship - the relationship may be strengthened by working through these issues (I did wonder if the fees issue was still lingering between you to some degree), but it's a very expensive use of your therapy time for someone who is being defensive on your clock. I'm not saying it's easy to raise issues in therapy but if the anxiety is about known defensiveness as opposed to "oh god, I've made an arse of this (which is my go to), it's going to be hard to resolve with her because for as long as she's being defensive, she's not listening to you.

Don't know if any of that makes sense?

 

[barefoot]

It does all make sense, yes - thanks.

Can’t get the quote function to work on my phone at the mo so just to pick up on some bits:

Re the fees issue - when she realised just what a state I was in about it all (because I basically burst into tears in the end and then I finally managed to say that I had been thinking for weeks that she was going to fire me) she looked genuinely shocked and, I think, suddenly seemed to realise how messy the situation has become. And she then leapt into action to reassure me and also then came up with a plan which gave me a heavily reduced rate for the time I needed while I was waiting for a new work project to come off. So, with the situation having got to that point, I think she did then do what she could to try to put things right and to try to rebuild a sense the safety and trust, which had certainly been significantly dented. And I think we both then consciously leaned in to build relationship over the weeks and months that followed.

I think the remnants of the fee issue are that it still really bothers me that she never explicitly “owned her part” in the mess. She didn’t ever apologise. She didn’t ever hold up her hands to dropping the ball or acknowledge that she could have handled it better. Maybe she did in a way, because she leapt into action to reassure me and try to put things right by offering me a very low rate for the interim period - if she hadn’t felt some ownership of the situation, perhaps she wouldn’t have done that?

But, at the time, I really wanted to hear some acknowledgement from her that she had contributed in some way to the mess and that it wasn’t just all on me. I didn’t even feel I neededan apology. The fact that she didn’t ever do that is the thing that still smarts. But I do think that is more my issue than hers. It’s my issue if I can’t fully let it go because it still annoys me that she didn’t say “I could have handled things a bit better” or something. I think it is on me that this still really irks me.

Re my relationship with her: I see what you mean with that distinction. I feel I can say anything else therapy-content-wise and trust that she will be accepting, non-judgemental, compassionate, safe etc. It’s only about the interpersonal stuff if it directly relates to her. And, even then, sometimes she does take it ok and we have a measured conversation about it, both get clarity where it’s needed and we move on and I feel better about sharing. But because there have been a few instances where it hasn’t gone well, I feel worried about bringing this sort of stuff up and I either decide not to bother or, if it’s really important and I feel I have to bring it up, I will do it really, really carefully so that I try to avoid any major upset.

You’re right about it being an expensive thing to spend time on - if I bring up her defensiveness and she gets defensive and we spend a few sessions on that, that’s a lot of money for something that may not get us anywhere!

There clearly are a couple of issues here for me. Firstly, that I haven’t fully got over the fee saga (which I do think is my issue at this point so I think I need to consciously try to let go of that) and, secondly, that I worry about bringing up something that is related to our relationship.

That said, I can count on one hand the number of times in 3.5 years that I have brought up an issue and she has got defensive. On those few occasions when it has happened, it has been really hard and upsetting. And perhaps it does lurk in the space/dynamic because it has been “out there”. But it isn’t something that actually comes up all that often at all.

So, don’t think I want to spend my time, money and energy on interpersonal stuff now which, yes, is maybe lurking in the background but which, at the moment, isn’t a big here and now issue.

What I think I will do though is pledge that, next time an interpersonal thing comes up that I feel I should raise but that I feel wary about raising, I will really try to bring it up with her and, at the same time, tell her honestly how worried I am about sharing it with her. So then we can look at that (my anxiety about her potential response) in a real, practical context.

Thanks @Suzetig and @joeylittle for exploring this aspect of therapy with me. It’s ended up being way off topic but it has been useful to reflect on.