Latest Science On Ptsd Vetted By Sludge

[Sludge]

Check this out. There is now replicated evidence that ther is at least two genetic/epigenetic markers for pre-disposition to PTSD.

Think of it! In the future genetic testing could keep folks out of the military so they don't end up like us and/or a gene therapy could be developed to reduce or prevent additional symptoms from developing!

Dead Link Removed

 

[Friday]

Roflmao... Unless one of those genes is the stubbornness to figure out a way in anyhow!

For real, nothing could have kept me out of the military. Certainly not knowing in advance I was gonna get f*cked up. I assumed that, to begin with. If not for my country, which was where my heart lay, there are still other avenues in. Hell, even as bad as things have gotten from time to time... Conflict is still the only place where things make sense.

 

[Lurch]

I think in ten years they are gonna find out that the same gene is responsible for making us so good at what we did over there. Sounds like the entire egg argument again. Eggs are good, nope they are bad, nope some eggs are good, now all eggs are good again.......

Unless you are a tall brunette, stay out of my genes and jeans.....

 

[Sludge]

Agreed. If we weren't already a bit paranoid and prone to paying the hell attention, none of us would have cut the mustard.
As for the egg argument, I feel genetics is an obsolete science. Epigenetics is where it is at. Genetics are merely the documents. Epigentics are the programming that produces such documents.

I also posit that if anyone bothered to take the time and money to do it, one would likely find a direct link between generations and major conflicts pointing more to epigenetic causation rather than specific karyotypes. That is, for instance, my generation's propensity (Gulf War, Central Europe, Africa and the Gulf again) for PTSD is linked to our parent's war (Viet Nam), Their parents wars (Korea and WWII) and their parents (WWI) and so on back through history. The subject sample would be recent veterans with direct descent family members in the preceding conflicts. The control would be recent veterans with no family members involved in previous conflicts.

I personally believe, based on my own previous research, that there is without argument a predisposition to military PTSD, genetic or not.

I guess what I am getting at in laymen's terms is that through epigenetics it takes generations of exposure and overlap to combat stress that results in an individual getting PTSD.

 

[RTO]

I guess what I am getting at in laymen's terms is that through epigenetics it takes generations of exposure and overlap to combat stress that results in an individual getting PTSD.

From The Big Red One(1980)

Johnson: Would you look at how fast they put the names of all our guys who got killed?

The Sergeant: That's a World War One memorial.

Johnson: But the name's are the same.

The Sergeant: They always are.

 

[Grizzly]

Agreed. If we weren't already a bit paranoid and prone to paying the hell attention, none of us would have cut the mustard.
As for the egg argument, I feel genetics is an obsolete science. Epigenetics is where it is at. Genetics are merely the documents. Epigentics are the programming that produces such documents.

I also posit that if anyone bothered to take the time and money to do it, one would likely find a direct link between generations and major conflicts pointing more to epigenetic causation rather than specific karyotypes. That is, for instance, my generation's propensity (Gulf War, Central Europe, Africa and the Gulf again) for PTSD is linked to our parent's war (Viet Nam), Their parents wars (Korea and WWII) and their parents (WWI) and so on back through history. The subject sample would be recent veterans with direct descent family members in the preceding conflicts. The control would be recent veterans with no family members involved in previous conflicts.

I personally believe, based on my own previous research, that there is without argument a predisposition to military PTSD, genetic or not.

I guess what I am getting at in laymen's terms is that through epigenetics it takes generations of exposure and overlap to combat stress that results in an individual getting PTSD.

So if I follow this Sludge. What you are trying to explain it that the predisposition of PTSD is not getting better through the generations but getting worse?

 

[Sludge]

So if I follow this Sludge. What you are trying to explain it that the predisposition of PTSD is not getting better through the generations but getting worse?

Effectively, yes. With each generations exposure, it appears that the previous generations exposure has definitive effects. Current studies on epigenetics demonstrate a similar pattern. Check out the now relatively famous (to science geeks anyway) Överkalix Study.

Given the current tendency to coddle children (in the US anyway) it may well prove to be that as time progresses, psychological disorders will become much more serious and much more prevalent. There is much more to it than just psychological exposure however. Diet, environmental and even radiation exposure plus a million other factors may or may not be involved. Sorry to be ambiguous, but epigenetics is a very new hard science that we haven't even begun to truly comprehend.
To my knowledge, no epigenetic study on PTSD has been done before, likely due to the sketchy record keeping of the United States as a whole. Even in other countries, one would be hard pressed to get detailed health records and such back more than roughly a century and a half.

 

[Grizzly]

Effectively, yes. With each generations exposure, it appears that the previous generations exposure has definitive effects. Current studies on epigenetics demonstrate a similar pattern. Check out the now relatively famous (to science geeks anyway) Överkalix Study.

Given the current tendency to coddle children (in the US anyway) it may well prove to be that as time progresses, psychological disorders will become much more serious and much more prevalent. There is much more to it than just psychological exposure however. Diet, environmental and even radiation exposure plus a million other factors may or may not be involved. Sorry to be ambiguous, but epigenetics is a very new hard science that we haven't even begun to truly comprehend.
To my knowledge, no epigenetic study on PTSD has been done before, likely due to the sketchy record keeping of the United States as a whole. Even in other countries, one would be hard pressed to get detailed health records and such back more than roughly a century and a half.

This is fascinates me. I have military records of my GGF, and I know my GF was in some heavy fighting in the Philippines, spent a year and a half in an Army Hospital for wounds, battle fatigue and malaria. My father, did not serve combat. He was drafted but ended up stationed in Germany during Vietnam. I do have a family tree that traces my paternal side all the way back to the revolutionary war. Lots of fighting in my bloodline.

 

[Lurch]

This is an interesting concept. I have a lot of military history in my family, but none in direct lineage (they usually died in battle, Alamo, USS Forrestal...). The only one that I know that had any form of PTSD, and survived, is my Great Uncle that was on a LCM/LCU during the Pacific Campaign. He came home with a lot of Japanese war relics and a really bad case of shell shock. Ended up living with my Grandparents as he could not function on his own (wife divorced him). I don't know if that makes me inclusive or exclusive for this type of study, but interesting hypothesis.

 

[Sludge]

Yeah, epigenetics is mindblowing stuff. At first they thought it was a correlation/causation issue, but over the last roughly 20 years, more examples covering a variety of issues points in this direction. Sounds silly, but droughts, famines, nuclear testing, corn syrup, penicillin, unusually long winters, etc all have genetic effects generations later.

i think the real trouble in applying the concept for PTSD is I believe a predisposition to it may be linked to familial alcohol and tobacco use, both known factors in neurotransmitter production and myelin sheath conductivity. Particularly with combat PTSD, I believe one would find direct lineage links to those and PTSD, but without real research it truly is a chicken or egg hypothesis and nothing more.

Wish I had the funding and the skills to work on such a thing. Would make all this, and the silly degree I am desperately close to finishing worth something, I think.

 

[holdenmonty]

All that stuff is about a mile over my head

 

[Lurch]

Holdenmonty, it is a fairly simple process for a very difficult thing. What is being said a person serving in the military children have a higher propensity to also serve in the military. We don't know if that is Nature (genes) or nurture (experience, Dad did so did I). The theory basically states that someone with this type of gene may attracted someone else that also has this type of gene. So that gene becomes dominate (has a higher affect on the person) then before.

Even though my Dad never served I was raised around people who did. I had a higher propensity to serve. I met my wife and we married. Her Dad served in the Army right before Vet Nam. So there is a chance the my son may have the gene, and it may be stronger.

You see this done on purpose in other animals. People select what they like about an animal and breed it with another to get more that have that desired trait. Now the trait is more pronounced.

The theory is basically saying natural order is make the selection based on what we find attractive to give our offspring a higher rate to succeed. What we don't like about PTSD made it possible for us to succeed in crisis.

Now Sludge this is a grossly over simplification, so please do hammer me too hard.