Neurofeedback/biofeedback

[Snuggy]

Does anyone here have any experience with neurofeedback for PTSD?

After trying every type of Talk Therapy available, I've decided to try this. The benefits for me are that I don't have to talk about the trauma. They claim it is very useful in relieving PTSD symptoms, and very quick, though still gentle on the brain.

Any comments, advice, questions?

(Please forgive me if there is already a thread about this, I looked, but could not find one.)

 

[anthony]

[DLMURL]https://www.ptsdforum.org/c/threads/brain-balance-neurofeedback.6782/[/DLMURL]
[DLMURL]https://www.ptsdforum.org/c/threads/biofeedback-a-type-of-therapy.4779/[/DLMURL]
[DLMURL]https://www.ptsdforum.org/c/threads/has-anyone-ever-done-biofeedback.2463/[/DLMURL]
[DLMURL]https://www.ptsdforum.org/c/threads/eeg-neurofeedback.5724/[/DLMURL]

 

[Snuggy]

Thanks Anthony for pointing out those posts. They were very helpful. :)

 

[NBaker]

HI
I'm a psychotherapist and work with a lot of clients with PTSD. Since I introduced neurofeedback into my practice 6 months ago I've seen HUGE improvements in the functioning, and mood of my clients. They simply aren't being triggered by present circumstances the way they were. I highly recommend it. In particular I recommend the Zengar system. Hope that helps....

 

[Froggie]

Welcome to the forum NBaker, where do you work ? In which country ? Just looked up in Google to have more information on the Zengar system and saw that there is a service in Montreal (Quebec)

 

[Snuggy]

I recently had my 3rd treatment with the Zengar system. My first two treatments left me feeling more energetic, with improved sociabilty, and an improved overall feeling of happiness that seemed to influence many other parts of my life.

But my 3rd treatment (on Friday) was horrible. I dissociated through most of it, and continued to heavily dissociate throughout the weekend. I feel exhausted, very bitchy, and at best - confused. I can barely think.

I've put out an email to my psychiatrist about this, but have had no response yet.

I'm trying to give this treatment a fair shake... I have invested quite a bit of hope in it, and I feel like it could be my last try at therapy. I had good feelings about it until fridays appointment...and after suffering like this all weekend, I want to quit.

I also have reserves about the way the clinic is run. NBaker (above) ...(as many other psychologists I've found online) all seem to imply that this treatment is given adjacent to talk therapy...and given by the psychologist themselves...

Well, in my case, I go to a clinic. I had an intake appointment where I was interviewed by a nurse, then briefly spoken to by a psychiatrist. After that I never saw the nurse ot psychiatrist again (but had access to email with the psychiatrist). Instead, when I show up for appointments, I get a young technician who hooks me up to the machine, does a baseline reading, then leaves me alone. In the past, when I asked these technicians questions about the proceedure, I recieved confusing information. When I ask the psychiatrist, I get very vague answers. I'm learning to just quit asking questions and just go along and shut up.

Also a big concern, I was put in with a new (and very young) technician for my first two treatments. This girl barely said a word to me and seemed offended by my questions and comments. I had the chance to talk to the dr about this and she volunteered that she hired this girl to do a favor for a friend. At this point I began to lose faith in this clinic. This isn't the general store, where every teen gets his first job.... It's a place where people put the health of their brain in your hands....

So I am unsure if my severe dissociative episode is due to anything related to the neurofeedback... Or if it is simply caused by my loss of faith in this clinic, my fear of going there, of being triggered off by the belief "these people are not taking good care of me" - Which is a horrible trigger related to my childhood trauma.

I can't think well right now...so I won't make a decision now.... but I feel like I need to get better and then decide if this place is right for me. I'm not in the position to say that neurofeedback is "bad"... based on two of my sessions, it worked very well. But after my last session...I'm afraid to go back, and worse - I don't even know what caused this relapse.

 

[Froggie]

I being triggered off by the belief "these people are not taking good care of me" - Which is a horrible trigger related to my childhood trauma.

(((Snuggy))), thank you for that feedback, I'm certain that it will be taken into account. I too would find it strange to be left in the hands of young techs who are not psychiatrist nor nurse. Will be interested in finding out what you psydoc will reply to your email. You have a right to answers and knowing what this treatment will be doing to you or how it will affect you. Keep us posted on this.

 

[Snuggy]

Thanks Froggie, I appreciate your support, concern and interest.

I have heard back from my psychiatrist. She told me that the Zengar system works with my brain in deciding what gets worked on. She said at first the system often "stabilizes and structures" ...(and that sounds like what happened in the first two sessions for me, I felt "better" after those sessions).

I had asked her (in my email): "Was anything done differently on friday? Were we working on a different brainwave that day?" She responded with "It doesn't do anything that your brain cannot handle. We don't set the program differently, it gets decided between you and the feedback (software) what gets worked on. It sounds like some "work" was getting done on friday."

She also said, "Yes, it can be rough. But I don't find it as brutal as (talk) therapy can be when doing the same work."

She also told me that I can ask my technician for a specific setting, and that will turn up the good feelings a bit, and adjust for a more gentle setting. She also said I can just stick with the regular settings and push forward with it. At the end of the email she sounded happy and encouraging by reminding me that "Stuff is happening in there."

I need some time to digest all of this... As I said earlier, I don't think all my spark plugs are firing today....

But I will say this....

- I will return to this therapy, and I will ask for the gentler treatment, though asking a kid to make such adjustments is scarey sh*t.

- To anyone out there like me, who is considering this therapy, and looking at all the research on the internet.... DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THIS THERAPY IS EASY or GENTLE. This is something I was told, and I believed...and I'm learning it is untrue. I think my therapist may be right in saying to me "It is not as brutal as talk therapy".... But realize that it IS just as triggering. The difference between me and my clone (who chose talk therapy) is; my clone would know exactly what set this all off. I remain in the dark about what triggered me because this all took place in my subconscious mind, not the conscious mind (as in talk therapy). This is what you need to ask yourself when choosing this therapy... "Am I gonna be okay with not knowing what really happened?"

- and maybe I do know what set off this dissociative episode.... because when I read through my prior post here... I can't help but notice myself remembering incidences from childhood where I am realizing "these people are not looking after me right". Quite honestly...I don't want to remember that in detail. If the thick dissociation and anger and confusion I have been dealing with all weekend is all about those memories... It's enough for me to just feel it - not see or hear it again - and still know it is being released/erased.

Anyway, I hope this helps anyone else who may be considering this therapy. I will continue to write here about these experiences as long as I continue the neurofeedback therapy.

 

[Froggie]

Snuggy, that is a great idea to keep posting your experience. With PTSD, I don't believe there is such a thing as gentle therapy, you have to go to the core issue(s), but you need someone to talk to or have someone to debrief you when the going gets rough.

 

[Snuggy]

I just wanted to document that I had my fourth treatment yesterday.

I don't want to get too graphic... But on the long drive to the clinic I was very suicidal (working out all the details). Prior to leaving for the appointment, my husband and I had a very bad fight (not physical, we never fight physically). My point in sharing this info is that I couldn't have felt worse before going in to this therapy. It was bad. Since last weeks appointment I haven't been well at all.

However - yesterdays appointment totally fixed me right up. It was nothing short of miraculous. I left the office happy, talkative, and wanting to go to McDonalds. :) Zero suicidal feelings or defeated/hopeless thinking. It made me wonder if people who are suicidal in hospital emergencys (for example) could get this treatment...I wonder if it would make it go away for them?

Today I am wondering if the affects of neurofeedback are most noticable when you feel your worst?

One other thing I think I should add in to these posts : My husband also goes for treatment with me. I'm unsure if we both get the same treatment (program) ... but my husband has now had 4 treatments as well and claims he never feels any difference. (Maybe a little tired). I thought I should mention this for anyone reading this and considering this therapy. My husband is an example of someone who feels nothing from these treatments. (My husband has no mental illness that we are aware of.) My experience has been very different from my husbands. I have always felt changes, tho sometimes they were mild.

Also, in further emails with my psychiatrist, she described my dissociative episode followed by improved happiness as "the wobble effect". Neurofeedback with the Zengar system is suppose to stabilize an unstable brain. It was compared to someone learning to ride a bike. At first they are wobbly and cannot stay on a straight line painted on the road... I guess that's what is happening to me...I'm veering all over the road because stability is new to me.

Quite honestly... I do feel better now... but I worry how long lived this will be. I sometimes worry it is just placebo affect because I want so much to feel better. All I can do is just continue along and see how it all works out in the end.

Some advice I would give to others who may be considering this treatment:

- Be sure to ask exactly WHO will administer the treatment. You may feel more secure if your actual therapist installs the electrodes, starts the program, and talks about the baseline readings with you. (I'm in a clinic and in 4 treatments I've had 3 different technicians now...and I really crave some stability - ONE person - for this job.)

- As Froggie pointed out, you may want some additional counselling, and it would be best to ask about that (how available is it?) before beginning this treatment.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
And, to Froggie - Maybe I will be ready for talk therapy after I've had some of these treatments. I've had over a decade of talk therapy and found none of it helpful, tho to my knowledge I was never "debriefed". Talk therapy was actually traumatic to me, as I felt disbelieved and challenged, even attacked, but never supported. At this point, I'd be a bad candidate for talk therapy, and would probably only get further abuse because therapists are only people...sometimes very overworked limited-ability people...and those type of people tend to get frustrated and abusive to me. At least that's what has happened in the past. It's why I feel fortunate to find a clinic that will give me neurofeedback without enforcing talk therapy. However, it may be their hope that in time I'll want talk therapy. I don't know. For now I can only go along and see what happens. Please know I appreciate this feedback though, and I understand that the absence of talk therapy would not be appropriate for everyone. Just as talk therapy may not be appropriate for some. :)

 

[Deleted member 1860]

I know this is an old post, but I am concerned over the way you are doing neurofeedback.

1... You're apparently going to one of those brain centers. You should be doing Neuro with your trauma therapist, NOT some uneducated tech, and NOT with a new tech every session.

2... Perhaps the Zengar system is not right for you. Yes, it is pushed as the latest and greatest in Neuro technology, but THE MACHINE is making the decision as to what is best for you! The machine isn't going to take into affect the fact that your last session was destabilizing and adjust the protocol. My therapist targets various parts of my brain based on my symptoms, as well as the duration. I have issues with obsessive thoughts so she targets my left temple (if I recall correctly!) if my depression is bad, she targets another area. So on and so forth... So ultimately it is my therapist who controls the Neuro, it's not all up to some machine!

 

[Snuggy]

Thanks for your reply SOL. I have also responded in "Conversations", but I'm so unfamilar with this program that I have no idea if you recieved that message or not. Let me know if you didn't.

As for Zengar... It is the only system available to me at this time. I've had success with too few treatments to think about changing yet, but I will definately keep in mind what you have said should I feel a need for a change. Yes... multiple techs really bugs me, and is a definate deterant for me. I really do wish the therapist herself would look after me... but schedualling is a problem, so it might be my own fault (due to transportation times/issues).

Again, thanks for your reply. I really appreciate the support.