Preverbal Trauma - Infancy

[i think its very sad]

I agree with Abbi. There is just too much information passed off as fact out there that says that 1. If you are depressed, you'll make everybody in the world depressed. 2. Just living with you is causing all kinds of harm. 3. If you were abused, you are probably doing the same things. 4. Your children will inherit a tendency to have these "diseases" genetically.

You know you wouldn't wish this situation on your worst enemy (not true. If only we could give this disease to sociopaths; let them stay busy dealing with this) and the experts are insisting that all of the above are true, you have enough guilt & fear to deal with as a parent. It is cruel to keep heaping unprovable negative outcomes onto this pile. I'd go so far as to say, that just having all of this plus the hereditary myth causes it to be more probable that you will traumatize your child.

If you can't prove it concretely, then it is just theory no matter how many people you persuade to agree with you.
You can not inherit trauma genetically.

 

[i think its very sad]

If I had had a choice, I would not have had children but that is because I could not provide for them financially because I was too sick. I don't think they are prone to mental illness and I've been diagnosed with every disease they came up with and they invented a few new ones just for me.

If I had been able to work, they would have been warehoused in day-care centers and that is not an ideal situation for development either, IMOP.

There is no reason for us to go searching for negative factors to factor into our situation. I, for one, have enough obvious trauma to deal with. It is absolutely a blessing to believe that I'm not suffering for anything I cant remember that did not leave permanent physical proof that it happened and that my children are not suffering from birth trauma. I haven't examined the evidence that this is true but I hope its true & I'm just going to try to believe it.

 

[Abrasky]

I have a memory that returned to me about a year ago. I'm not sure if it's true though, it's one of my earliest memories of the concept of being a "nuturer" which a lot of my PTSD is about.

Reality-What I was told was that my bio father took me away from my mum to his parent's place. I ended up there where his mum, my grandmother took care of me for 4 weeks while my mum was in hospital recovering from domestic violence injuries. My stepfather to be and his horrible mother came to get me back and knocked on the door blazingly in the middle of the night.

Memory-I got this memory back which is very choppy that I really wouldn't say 100% it was a memory. But it was mostly about feeling safe with these people that were my grandparents. And them being nice to me, and some sort of terror with somebody yelling and screaming outside. I went to a dark room and after a while the yelling and the banging on the door stopped and stepfather and his mother came in and he said maybe we shouldn't take care her. She said no she''ll be good to take care of the other children(he meant you might have with my mother) I've always felt that it was my job to care for others because of this. I was 3. It's a scary memory. .

My mum says she was there outside waiting in the car.

So not sure if it really was a later memory or not. I try not to think of it as a memory, just something that may be something. My mum married dorkbrain when I was 3/4 years of age. But I think it really is possible, even if I'm not sure if it's true.

My psychologist use to say, how old do you feel with your memory? And she also focussed on whether the memory sounded like something a child in that age would say. If it sounds to childlike in language then it probably is a memory was her thoughts.

 

[lucy7]

Read [DLMURL]http://www.ptsdforum.org/c/wiki/posttraumatic-memory/[/DLMURL] which is unedited at present... but accurate to answer what you are asking, being about memory and childhood, and your delving towards false memories as well.

Basically, if you can't remember it, then its not traumatizing you. You are traumatizing you by trying to remember something not there, or trying to even falsify memories at any extent to make sense of this new information. Leave it at that, new information... you will understand after reading the above.

What nonsense!!!! Of course trauma can be preverbal and there is a LOT of research and evidence to suggest it can be. The view that if you cannot remember something, it can't traumatise you is an extremely damaging one. People can use that to justify all sorts of preverbal trauma.

Memory isn't just a verbal and conscious process. Preverbal trauma can be some of the most enduring because it's based on emotional states and procedural memory. It causes an impact at a very primitive level... affecting emotional regulation, our sense of safety and the very notion of being at home in your body. Earlier trauma is highly correlated with dissociative states because dissociation is one of the few defenses available to the preverbal mind.

This post made me cross!

 

[lucy7]

I think you're having a bad day Tlight, because this knowledge is not mine, it is from the experts in PTSD, it is from the neuroscientists. So maybe you should rethink your statements about attacking me with your opinion vs. what is now becoming current and actual fact with neuroscience in relation to trauma and PTSD specifically.

With the developments in neuroscience in the last 5 years, we are now relearning many facets, that all prior information is not as correct as we thought, and what is actually going on within the brain is far different to original theories that maybe you refer or know from your science experience.

I don't create information on PTSD, I learn it from the experts and apply it here. Nothing more, nothing less... never has been.

I am a practising clinician in this field and thus one of those experts you speak of. Preverbal trauma has far-reaching effects preverbally, there is increasing research in psychology and neuroscience to demonstrate this.

 

[anthony]

I am a practising clinician in this field and thus one of those experts you speak of. Preverbal trauma has far-reaching effects preverbally, there is increasing research in psychology and neuroscience to demonstrate this.

Hi Lucy,

There is also more research at present countering what you're stating. At your age, I would not call you an expert, sorry. The information contained here comes from people with 30+ years of clinical knowledge and experience in this field, and right now, they disagree with you, and when you have such experience yourself to call yourself an expert in that field, then I will attentively listen to what you have to say surrounding this aspect. Having a qualification or a few years experience doesn't make an expert. Experts with such longevity of experience also change as they see "empirical" data presented, not just a small dose of data, or skewed data that can be misinterpreted one way or another. I am not an expert, but I listen to experts, I learn from experts, but I seriously would never claim to be an expert in PTSD, as I have only studied it solidly for 5 years, nothing else. I know a hell of a lot about PTSD and its associated symptoms and disorders, but that is the extent of the wealth of my knowledge... still, not close to an expert with 20 or 30 years experience behind them.

But being in your 20's does not make you an expert by far or wide. I believe in this area, there is also a 20 something year old doctor, countering your exact statement in this very thread with medical fact. Again, not an expert. Are you a psychiatrist / Dr? If not, then you do not have such medical knowledge and maybe need to read further on what is current fact vs. possible change in the future. This forum does not work on inexperienced opinions, but instead those of more experienced practitioners, typically psychiatrists, and always has done so. I seek information from experts, not qualified persons with little overall experience, and replicate it here, nothing more, nothing less. Your opinion however is valid, but I believe you are stepping over the mark by referring to yourself as an expert on the subject matter.

There are plenty of studies on tissue memory, etc... no arguments there. When it comes to the brain, neuroscience is working hard, again, can only agree, but they don't have those answers that you are claiming at this point to make any type of definitive statement that you have chosen to make. A minority study / studies, does not change a thing, as there are studies on the pro's and con's of just about everything these days. One study says yes, another says no. Personal choice and opinion comes into these statements, but neither make empirical evidence.

 

[lucy7]

Hi Anthony,

I found your post a little patronising. Yes, I am a doctor in this field - a psychologist rather than a psychaitrist, granted (and I get the impression you may look down your nose at my profession - but with six years of formal study together with clinical experience, published research, extensive reading and personal experience of complex trauma, I can claim a lot more 'expertise' than many others older than myself). I acknowledge that I was wrong to respond in anger and to use my profession to add weight to my opinion.

However, the point that made me angry was the very one that you are contesting about my post! As you state, there are very many unknowns and uncertainties. Yet you stated in categorical terms: "if you can't remember it, then its not traumatizing you" and added a link to work about false memory - a very controversial and contested areas of research. In my view, it is irresponsible in a position of perceived authority to state with such certainty something that has caused a lot of distress to a lot of people.

No one in the world has a fully developed understanding about trauma and research is ongoing. Clinically, I have found research in the field of early relational trauma and its impact on attachment systems more useful than neuroscience in terms of clinical application. I accept that it is based on theory rather than fact - but that's what science is. We don't have to be able to capture something in a brain image for it to have clinical relevance.

I get the impression that you may discount personal experience as a valid contribution so I almost feel loathe to add it here. But I will - because I am proud of my dual status as a clinician and someone with personal experience. The work of Peter Fonagy and his colleagues - currently shaping new developments in my field - has given me a very useful framework to understand and overcome the impact of my devastating early experiences. The fact that I can't remember the very real trauma and abuse that happened to me in infancy does NOT mean it had no lasting impact. To claim otherwise would be as good as saying there is no harm in abusing an infant! Furthermore, that claim invalidates the lived experiences of myself and many many people I have worked with and the very real challenges such folk have to overcome in life.

Let's both stay open-minded, eh?!

Lucy

 

[scott_1971_h]

I am crtain I have had some preverbal trauma. I can remember I was crying and Yeti trotted everyone into my room and told them to laugh at me. Her laughing at me crying was to be taken for granted.
Scott

 

[scott_1971_h]

Here is a thought for you Abbi.

If a child near died at birth, and you never disclosed this to them, would they know otherwise that they nearly died at birth?

Now, if you told them during childhood, reinforced it during their life that they nearly died at birth, what do you expect to occur within their brain over time, knowing and being reinforced that they nearly died at birth? The person will begin to traumatise themselves from that knowledge, they nearly died at birth. They have no memory of the event, but it has been told to them their entire life. Did the actual event traumatise them or was it the constant reinforcement and statements to them during childhood, upwards, that they nearly died at birth that actually gave them PTSD?

Anthony you are talking about neonatal and this thread is about preverbal. There's a lot of neuronal development that occurs in that time gap. And yes if abuse occurs preverbally its a safe bet it's doubly (triply?) re-enforced by a barrage of constant abuse. There's sometimes no single event that causes the PTSD by itself but constant mistreatment sure as f**k can cause it.

Scott

 

[freakofnurture]

Concerning the topic of 'tissue memory', here is a short summary of how I understand it. I hope it will be helpful for the further discussion in this thread:

Singular abuse will not have much of an effect on a preverbal child, since long-term changes in the body (accidents don't count and conscious retrievable memories aren't yet formed) need long-term exposure to a stimulus to occur.

Still, if the child grows up in an environment that is chronically and exceedingly stressful, her brain structures will develop accordingly and bear the marks, as will the regulatory patterns of various genes. Many cell types, not only neurons (and neuronal structures) will 'remember' preveral abuse by showing patterns of gene regulation that are specific to cells that have lived through a prolonged phase of high stress.

Some of this is reversible since both - regulatory patterns and tissue structures - keep a high degree of plasticity (how else would the body be able to adapt to the constant changes over a day, month, year, etc.); but some of the structural and genetic parameters are put down once and can never be changed again.

This leaves a person who suffered chronical high stress - prenatal(!) as well as preverbal - with a body that is more vulnerable to psychological and somatical problems and diseases. This in turn is a bad place to start when the person is then proceeding into a life of emotional traumata.

Conclusion:
Prenatal and preverbal elevated stress does not produce PTSD. PTSD needs memories of emotional trauma, which prenatal/preverbal children do. not. have. But elevated stress during these phases of life makes a child more prone to develop PTSD later. It reduces their resilience.

Addendum:
Neglected preverbal children fail to thrive. Already at that age, babies need to be touched and have their existence acknowledged in a non-aggressive, low-stress manner in addition to being fed and cleaned.

 

[Mercy]

I have read this thread start to finish and thought about each one's perspective. I do have two preverbal memories that I have never heard about from any family member probably because they had no way to know about it.

My mother was Bipolar and distant. My brother said the other day that hugging her was like hugging a tree. I remember lying in a crib, and without words, seeing pictures of what would happen if I cried. I was cold and hungry. I chose not to cry. I saw in pictures being scalded, or penetrated. I choose to turn my head to look out the window next to the crib. There was a maple tree with many layers of different colors of green leaves moving to the breeze. As an adult, I think about that moment and give thanks to God for making me such a tender crib mobile. I love the natural world. It gives me comfort and connection to life itself.

 

[anthony]

Hi Scott, yes, that specific part of a discussion was about neonatal... if people read this entire thread, the majority is discussed about preverbal.

I do wish people would cease taking a statement, reframing it out of the context it was used, then applying opinion to it. This is exactly how forum discussions get skewed.

Lucy... I should have clarified my question, being medical doctor. So that would be a no. You and I both know, biological medicine and psychological medicine are not the same, hence why I asked if your a psychiatrist, being you would have both then. Was I patronizing you? To a degree, yes... because your not an expert at 20 something with six years study. Your a professional, no doubt about it, but that does not make an expert as you made claim, hence the patronizing remark.

Regardless what psychological medicine wants things to be, biological medicine right now is stated correctly for preverbal trauma, being that age up to the average talking, one year or so through to around 3 years... and even psychological medicine dictates more around the 3 year range, in agreeance with biological medicine, that memory is not retained because the brain physically does not have such capacity. Lets not argue about exact time frames, as it differs slightly per person. Between verbal and 3 years... gets iffy on an individual basis, prior to verbal... no evidence yet to support.

It is completely unproven, people make statements, yet have demonstrated zero documentary evidence, and you of all people Lucy with a doctoral in psychology (stating you are a Dr.), should know better than me that complex trauma brings a lot of misinformation within memories due to personality aspects obtained as part of the trauma. Maybe not an outright diagnosis to fit... but most normally fit into the NOS. Having statements made about things that occurred during early infancy become their own, just like they remember it themselves, yet it was reinforced to them vs. actually outright remembered outside of a therapeutic environment.

As Scott reinforced... its that barrage of constant abuse, and that is what makes a lot of this skeptical and hence unproven.

Right now, the evidence is contrary to statements made here, again, when it changes, I will change information provided here, without issue, just like PTSD being a chemical imbalance.... all bullshit based on the pax medica model of theory, and until neuroscience came round to disprove, it was fact. Because they discovered this many years ago, we didn't all fall down and change fact, as it had to first be empirically validated which takes years, not a study or two. So, when this changes, if it changes... I will change my stance on it. Until then though, I really have no new information to provide to this topic at present, because medicine itself has not provided such information as yet, empirically validated.