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Us politics - read first post before comment

Discussion in 'News, Politics & Debates' started by anthony, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. scout86

    scout86 I'm a VIP Premium Member Donated

    I've got no problem with being disagreed with on that, it's just an opinion. And I could be wrong. I just can't come up with a better explanation for the extreme partisanism we've been enduring the past few years.
    You mean Trump? There's no way I, personally, could ever support him, for any reason, at all, ever. My own take on him is that he has no moral compass at all. He's a narcissist, period. I don't know if he, himself, is a racist or not. I think he thinks there are people who ARE racists who will support him if they think he's one too. And, he might be a racist. Who knows? These days the whole "racist" thing is something I don't feel qualified to speak on. As near as I can tell, the consensus is all white people are racists and no one else can be. Since I'm white, I don't know that I'm qualified to make that call, except in cases that are ridiculously clear. Trump looks like a racist to me, for sure. But the only thing that really tells me is that he has some sort of reason for wanting to be perceived that way, until he doesn't. I wouldn't have voted for him if he'd been the last candidate on the face of the earth, but that has absolutely nothing to do with politics. I wouldn't have voted for him if I'd actually AGREED with him. Because I've dealt with enough people like him in real life I deeply believe there is no, legal, way to deal with them safely.

    Trump, and Mitch McConnell, and Nancy Pelosi, and the rest of the extreme partisans on both sides are the people that I think have decided it's good, for them, if the rest of us decide we have nothing in common. They want lines drawn and compromise to be out of the question. To me, it makes a lot more sense to start with the things we can agree on an work from there. You're not going to get the Aryan Nation on board, obviously. Again, that kind of group is extreme partisan and they aren't interested in democracy, they're interested in "winning". The thing is, we all live here and the people who disagree with me have just as much right to their opinion as I do. (We can all have different opinions, but not different facts.) No one has the right to take someone else's rights away. And THAT is where I tend to have a problem with a lot of the people who self identify as conservative. They DO, apparently, think they should be able to take some people's rights away. Not all conservatives, but some of them. Or so it seems to me. And we disagree on things like whether or not health care is a right too. (I could accept it as something we should each be responsible for, if most of us were able to earn enough money to pay for either health care or insurance. But that would mean the 1% would have to spread a little of their money around.)
    I didn't get that, but I could be wrong. Sure wouldn't be the first time.
    She Cat, Neverthesame and ShikibuZ like this.
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  3. EveHarrington

    EveHarrington _______ in progress. Premium Member


    Please go study history.

    This is part of the problem!
  4. Justmehere

    Justmehere Defying the odds Moderator Premium Member

    A good way to figure out where you fit on the political spectrum is to take one of the quizzes online about this political grid: The Political Compass

    There are other similar versions like here: Political Quiz - where do you stand in the Nolan Chart?

    I have taken a couple quizzes like this, and I usually end up more or less in the same area.

    I like this multi-axis quiz model because it takes it out of *just* a left vs right spectrum and fills it out more. I wasn't surprised about my own results, but I have friends who have been surprised about theirs.
    scout86, hodge and Neverthesame like this.
  5. She Cat

    She Cat Policy Enforcement Banned Premium Member Sponsor $100+

    Well, Trump is now using the NFL to get donations. Yet one more thing he’s doing to place the focus on him, instead of actually DOING THE JOB of president, and solving major issues. Oh, I forgot he’s not actually playing that role, he’s playing the role of narcissistic person with power...
    scout86 likes this.
  6. Justmehere

    Justmehere Defying the odds Moderator Premium Member

    I don't often read of someone who refers to the value of multiculturalism and nationalism at the same time.

    Can you explain more as to why you believe in nationalism and what you believe it will do for our nation?

    @She Cat - are you reffering to NFL owners donating money to Trump?

    I am pretty disgusted by this: How much did Mike Pence’s NFL walkout cost taxpayers?
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2017
    scout86, hodge and ShikibuZ like this.
  7. Gamera3000

    Gamera3000 Active Member

    I would define nationalism as being a love for, pride in, and respect for one's own nation. Years ago I was taking a German language class and the professor told us that in Germany, people do not sing the German national anthem, or talk about German pride, or anything like that. Certainly not in the same way we have here in America. This was a few months before 9/11. After 9/11, there were American flags everywhere. There was a lot of talk (and action) about everyone standing together to help the people affected. I heard many other people saying that we would find whoever did it and nuke them out of existence, no matter who they were. Interesting how all of that played out. Interesting as in very sad.

    I'll tell you a story to show what I think about multiculturalism versus nationalism: When I was teaching refugees, I encouraged them to learn about American culture and to immerse themselves as much as possible, because this makes language and the citizenship test much easier. I was teaching to the test and I wanted them to be able to get jobs easier and get off welfare and raise their standard of living. I have what I would say is a problem in that I empathize way too much with people I am in charge of and I would always get too concerned with how my class was doing. Some old dude teachers would make them stand, salute the flag, and say the pledge of allegiance at the start of every class. I didn't do that myself because I was too aware that some of these people had just fled their countries with their houses on fire. I didn't want them to misunderstand the flag thing and think they HAD to, in like an authoritarian way, instead of as a sign of love and respect. I told them that they were NOW (even before the citizenship test) they were now Nepali-Bhutanese-Americans, or Iraqi-Americans, or Ethiopian-Americans. That they should be keeping a love and respect for their original country, but adjusting to being Americans like the rest of us. That it was not giving anything up, but adding something. Kind of like when you get married you add the new family, you don't lose your original family.
    scout86 likes this.
  8. Justmehere

    Justmehere Defying the odds Moderator Premium Member

    @Gamera3000 - ah, thanks for explaining more. What you describe sounds like patriotism but it is very nationalistic too. It seems like you see that love and pride in country as the end goal - as its own purpose, not so much as a product or even a side effect of a good nation doing good things for it's people. Is that right?

    Germans do not show pride in their flag and downplay even patriotism because they have seen firsthand the dangers of nationalism - you had a good instinct to resist forcing people to stand for the flag, but instead teaching them why it matters.

    Do you think there are any dangers in nationalism? If so, how do we protect it from becoming forced patriotism?

    I personally would not disrespect or burn the flag myself, and I try to show respect, but I also support the rights of others to burn it if they do choose. I believe that freedom of speech overall has no value unless it protects the speech I disagree with and even find offensive.

    I personally would die to protect the rights and principles contained in the US Constitution. Without a doubt. I do not think my nation's culture is better than others though. I think our founding principles are heathy and good, but not the culture - and that's a big distinction between nationalism and patriotism.

    For example, American culture sexualizes women to a disgusting degree. Men are addicted to porn more than ever and the US fuels human trafficking around the world. The Harvey Weinstein case - a man sexually harassing and possibly raping so many women - while so many women and men stayed silent for decades, is a symptom of some ways our culture is off kilter: From Aggressive Overtures to Sexual Assault: Harvey Weinstein’s Accusers Tell Their Stories

    But do I still stay the pledge of allegiance with others? Yes. Because I support the principles in our founding documents. But there are things that Americans do as a culture that I really don't support.

    And perhaps to throw a wrench in my own views, while I believe we should welcome more refugees to our country and for them to bring their culture with them - that is balanced with a respect for American values - and I do believe we need an official national language. For purely logistical reasons.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
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  9. She Cat

    She Cat Policy Enforcement Banned Premium Member Sponsor $100+

    @Justmehere I saw on the news this morning that apparently Trump is sending out letters to his donars and his pack of voters that is ripping up the NFL and touting how people should respect the flag, our military, veterans blah blah blah. And if you’d like to donate to the cause.... Just another disgusting way to get his point across, make it about him and get $$.

    If I did sports, and was at a game. Have to say that I would take a knee right along with the players....
    ShikibuZ, Justmehere and hodge like this.
  10. One step at a time

    One step at a time Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the resource. It helped me clarify my values and political beliefs.

    Also, just the exercise of looking at the questions was useful. Reading them, I imagined people who might share my same basic values and yet might answer these questions differently. I imagined how different values might lead to different - or even the same - political beliefs. I came away with more nuanced feelings on some issues, and knowing a little more about economics.... anyway, thanks for making me think.
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  11. She Cat

    She Cat Policy Enforcement Banned Premium Member Sponsor $100+

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  12. ShikibuZ

    ShikibuZ Policy Enforcement Banned Premium Member

    Please tell me I didn't just lose my health care subsidy!?
    scout86 likes this.
  13. Justmehere

    Justmehere Defying the odds Moderator Premium Member

    No way to know what's going to happen for consumers right now, and that's a terrible possible outcome for the healthcare industry and all Americans. He took the subsidies away from insurance companies via executive order... and is now tweeting for the Democrats to contact him to fix it.

    He's trying to force the hand of congress in his favor for the fixes he wants.

    It's beyond ridiculous. It so guts the power of congress to pass laws that matter of the president can just defund them via eccutive order and then hold a fix for ransom to get the votes he wants for a plan with his name on it.

    I saw Bush and Obama use executive orders more and more and I called for limits on it then. It's time to stop this madness.
    Rain, scout86, ShikibuZ and 1 other person like this.
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