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News Us politics - read first post before comment

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I think they decided to go down this road when they decided we were going to be "the United States of America" rather than the "Confederated States of America". @Anarchy can probably go into this without looking it up, but it goes back to debates and discussions on the relative powers of the states and the federal government. Hamilton vs Jefferson & all that. I should know all this, but I don't remember the details.

The thing is, right now, the federal government claims a bigger share of my tax dollars than does the state. In the state where I live, we tend, at least up to the present, to value health care and education for all. We tend to think people should be able to marry who ever they want and to have choice about medical procedures, up to and including abortion. (This obviously isn't a universal value, but it's the majority.) We tend to think it should be easy for people to vote. We take in refugees at a fairly high rate. We're the US version of Scandinavia. (Probably because, historically, that's where most of us came from.) If there are other states (and apparently there are) who think the state should make it hard for people to register to vote, who don't think education and health care are worth funding, who think the state should be able to regulate who marries who...... Well, I'd just as soon my tax dollars stayed HERE, rather than get kicked up to the federal government that can then send them off to support efforts to suppress the vote elsewhere, or build a wall on the Mexican border. I'd just as soon see a system where most of the money stays at the state level and each state legislature can decide how much they want to kick in for the national defense or what ever.

I think, if there were smaller entities at work, there might be more efficiency because there'd be less bureaucracy. Although we seem to have plenty of that at the state level too. Maybe townships are the way to go.
 
Even more of an argument (in my mind) for the US splitting up into more reasonable bits.

I'm really beginning to give this some thought. But then I think of environmental issues, EPA and such, and the present mode of stripping everything. If a faction of the country believed in such abominations, isn't it true that poisoned water and air are not stationary etc. Does this make sense?

Well, I'd just as soon my tax dollars stayed HERE, rather than get kicked up to the federal government that can then send them off to support efforts to suppress the vote elsewhere, or build a wall on the Mexican border. I'd just as soon see a system where most of the money stays at the state level and each state legislature can decide how much they want to kick in for the national defense or what ever.

I agree. My state has a faction that is already arguing for independence from this mess.
 
environmental issues, EPA and such, and the present mode of stripping everything. If a faction of the country believed in such abominations, isn't it true that poisoned water and air are not stationary etc. Does this make sense?

In the mid and late19th century (earlier in Britain), there was a growing specialism in environmental forensic science

People were bringing tort claims against railroads and industries for the damage caused by pollution, for example damage to a river fishery from water pollution, the blighting of an orchard caused by air pollution, the burning of a standing crop or a corn stack by cinders or airborne sparks from a locomotive...

The emerging science specialised in gathering evidence to substantiate the tort claims and to trace the culprits.

Lobbying by the influential industrial interests resulted in a stop being placed on the tort claims; these narrow minded and selfish hay seeds were standing in the way of progress, and national greatness...

The emerging common law recognition of individual property rights in clean air and clean water, was reversed.

We are left with communism of air and of river water, ground water and sea water.

Garrett Harden's essay "the tragedy of the commons" gives a background to the problems of an area where individual property rights are denied, and where the benefits of abuse can be privatised, and the costs are born by all participants (ie socialised).

Invoking the need for a state

(and the most widely accepted definition of a state is some variant of Max Weber's; a state is the institution holding a monopoly on the legal use of violence over a defined geographical area)

On the basis of the need to control air and water pollution, when it was action by the state that stopped people from defending their emerging property rights in clean air, water, food etc. Provides us with one of the bitterest of ironies.
 
Just following from the denial of homesteading and of private property rights in air, rivers, radio frequency bands... (The last was beginning to emerge in the early twentieth century, and was rapidly stamped upon and nationalised by states)

Thinkers like Albert J Nock, outline two means of obtaining the essential (and the non essentials
but very enjoyable) things in life:

The economic means
We produce or work on what we're good at, and consensually exchange with other people for what they've made or traded for.

And the political means.
Where resources are taken from the people who use the economic means, by credible threat of force.

The state (and that includes the fe'ral) is the organisation of the political means. That's what it was created for (see Franz Openheimer for historical analysis of the origin of the institution of the state).

It is a means to transfer resources from the politically less powerful, to the politically more powerful.

In a democratic state, it becomes the war of all upon all Which Thomas Hobbes wrote about as his justification for the state, and that according to Hobbes, government is supposed to prevent.

It's a situation which Frederic Bastiat (well worth reading) summed up as
"Government, that great fiction where everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else"
 
I think they decided to go down this road when they decided we were going to be "the United States of America" rather than the "Confederated States of America". @Anarchy can probably go into this without looking it up

The constitutional convention was very much a Hamiltonian coup d'etat.

Under the articles of confederation, the 13 colonies were independent states (countries) with agreement on cooperation.

England had already had several coups, and the machinary of the political means had been taken from the landed nobililty who were descended from the Norman invaders of 1066.
And sized by the emerging merchant class.

The pressures for the seizure of the political means in the colonies, were largely similar. Yes, Jefferson's declaration is full of inalienable individual natural rights, and so had the writings of the English Levelers of the 1640s
People like John Lilburne, were the first British libertarians
Unfortunately they participated in revolution, before they had done the long hard work of re legitimising the state in the minds of the majority

So the machinary of coercion and mass acceptance of it was still in place, simply to be seized by dictator. In that case it was Cromwell. In later cases we can look at Washington, Robespierre, Napoleon, Lenin and Trotsky, Mussolini, Mao, Pol Pot...

Jefferson's fine words about inalienable individual natural rights were completely ignored in what followed.

Once the property of loyalists and anyone accused of being loyalist had been seized,. Vested interest groups got lobbying for special treatment. tarriffs sprang up between the colonies, even on things as ridiculous as cabbages and firewood.

There was a mechanism under the articles of confederation for representatives of each of the 13 colonies to meet to discuss common matters, and then for all 13 colonies to ratify the proposals which came from that meeting.

That was the basis that what became the constitutional convention, met upon.

No one there had the remit to come up with a political superstate (one ring to rule them all) and any agreement was supposed to be ratified by all 13 colonies
What was pushed was for ratification by 9 or more of the 13 to bind the remainder!
(For a thorough and devastating critique of the united state Constitution, check out Lysander Spooner, the constitution of no authority - it's available as a free MP3 audio book download)

That provided for a large area to be enclosed in a single tarriff boundary

The purpose of a tarriff is to artificially increase the price that people have to pay for goods. Without a tarriff, raising prices by cartels and monopolies is impossible.

From economics 101 and supply and demand curves, it can be seen that the only way prices can be raised is by reducing supply.

The bulk of the population therefore have less goods and services available to them and must pay more for them

While only a few protected and privileged get to receive higher prices than they otherwise would have, and even they suffer from the higher prices that they must pay for the goods and services that they consume.

That was the bitter result of the Hamiltonian coup d'etat at what became known as the constitutional convention. The writings of any of the free trade liberals clearly and logically refute the Hamiltonian position, Cobden in England, Bastiat in France, John c Calhoun in America (unfortunately Calhoun was from South Carolina, so while he's great on free trade, he's also a supporter of slavery :poop::tdown:)

Following shortly after the constitution, was the "aliens and sedition act" to silence criticism and dissent - so much for a first amendment right to free speech.

And also the whiskey taxes
Politically connected individuals in upstate Pennsylvania, wanted a bigger income than they could make by their own honest initiative
They were granted permission to plunder their farming neighbours, in the name of collecting a tax on whiskey (it was a long way to transport grain to market, so they made it into whiskey, which was cheaper to transport).

Naturally, those neighbours objected, and the fe'ral army was used to crush those objections. George Washington, who was a major real estate speculator both before and after independence, even took the opportunity to show potential clients around some of the prime properties that he had for sale in the area.

Incidentally, the site of the district of criminals was based upon Washington's Potomac company. It was supposed to be the terminus of a Potomac canal. Even DC was an attempt to up the value of Washington and his cronies real estate speculation!
 
Well explained @Anarchy! If the majority of Americans knew that history half as well as you do, I think we would be so much better off.

Meanwhile, can the US president pleeeeese delete his twitter account? Ugh. I'm so sick of hearing about it. How about all of the world agrees to ignore his tweets so then MAYBE he will stop?

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams wrote some fiesty letters back and forth, and there has been plenty of mud slinging through the years, but the damn twitter wars over NOTHING of national importance are just... UGH.
 
The constitutional convention was very much a Hamiltonian coup d'etat.

How many "founding fathers' had slaves? (I know the answer). Slavery is also a founding social and *economic* principal of this country and one that is not to be overlooked, minimized, ignored etc. This analysis seems too abstract me (and yes, I am aware I am looking through a limited lens and yet...hmm...). Waterways connect. We breathe the same air. And all of us suffer the consequences of oppression.


How about all of the world agrees to ignore his tweets so then MAYBE he will stop?

I don't think ignoring arrogance, ignorance, narcissism, and hate is the answer to the man-child in office who resorts to social media to bully and intimidate those said office is designed to "protect". This behavior is an absurd and terrifying abomination and of national importance due to the sheer recklessness of its existence. In this particular instance, I feel that to ignore is to enable.

Apologies, all. I'm obviously really upset with what is happening right now!
 
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How many "founding fathers' had slaves?
I'm not sure who you're including in the list, but it's my understanding that John Adams did not own slaves.

Your right, the planet is one planet and what harms in one place ultimately affects others. As it stands right now though, individual states seem to be more concerned about the environment than the federal government.
 
Without clean air to breathe and clean water to drink, none of the rest of it really matters. We can't eat money. We still foster an existence that heavily relies on the enslavement of other living beings that creates much detriment to the land and waters. It's been picking up speed for a long time, yet is still viewed by most as being normal and not that much of a problem.
 
individual states seem to be more concerned about the environment than the federal government.

Yes, I am aware of this. Yet as a wildlife conservationist, I am also aware of the limitation of "states" on this particular point. As not all of our states are concerned with environmental issues the collective "we", as a country will, as a result, ultimately reap the consequences. We already are.

John Adams was but one "founding father".

www.smithsonianmag.com/history/founding-fathers-and-slaveholders-72262393/
 
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