Relationship When Is It Ptsd And When Is It Abuse/ Manipulation?

[confused_wife]

I'm new here and have never posted in a forum before. I have been reading the threads here for a few weeks but I'm sorry to just jump in but I am confused and frustrated. I have known my H since we were kids but we have only actually been together for a little over 3 years, with a big gap of separate paths in the middle.

I have stood by him through repeated cheating, lying, lashing out, an unwanted sexual attempt that he passed out during and currently the second inpatient stay for attempted suicide. For both attempts the most obvious trigger would be me wanting to end the relationship due to continued cheating, lying and refusing to discuss our issues. Both times when I would get off the phone he would send me a text that told me in a round about way what he was thinking. And of course that lead to me scrambling back on the phone for hours trying to talk him out of the immediate danger until I could get someone to him and get him to a hospital. Due to him being stationed somewhere other than home (not deployed) neither time was I there but I was helpless on the phone trying to keep him occupied and busy until someone could get to him while caring for the kids.

Through our relationship there has been many hurtful things but the main ones making me wonder about is...telling me he is pretty sure he would try suicide again if he loses me. Telling me the doctor said he would probably succeed if he tried again. All when I was trying to discuss his lack of accountability on calling when he promises and how that makes me feel unimportant. When I try to talk about an issue he says his brain is jumbled and he's trying to think of things to say then can turn to people walking by and joke with them. I love you only comes when I haven't tried to get him to talk to me about anything important or if he has pushed to the point of me wanting to take a break.

Today he told me that he is ignoring the fill-in doctor because the doctor made him mad the first day. I told him he does that to me too and that he is there for help, to try to listen to someone else`s perspective and ask questions if he could. He said that he is treating the doctor worse than he has treated me during our relationship. I was speechless!! Coming from a guy that HAD to confront his dad and little sister over her getting pregnant while still in high school... before the anesthesia wore off from my medically necessary d&c at 10 weeks along!

I'm tired of this ride but I still love him, want the best for him, and don't want to contribute to another attempt. But I hate what I have become. And at times, I feel like I hate him, to be honest. Yet I cant deal with possibly being part of the reason my kids' dad is no longer alive. But my issue is...is this from the PTSD and something to try to work thru a longer? Or plain manipulation? How do you figure it out? What is real and what is smoke? Again I'm sorry this is so long. I hope it made sense.

 

[discarded]

Hi confused_wife and welcome. Like you I have struggled with what is PTSD and is what is just plain hurtful behaviour and manipulation. My husband also cheated on me and blamed either his illness or me for why it happened and also refuses to discuss it any of it. He also refuses any treatment.

Do you see a counselor yourself? If not, then you really need to. You are not responsible for his illness nor any attempt at suicide and should not feel guilty. You need to look after yourself first and if that means leaving him then he will just have to deal with it. It is his choice not to and behave the way he does.

I too, did not like the way I had become, always angry at him for his behaviour toward me, angry that he would not get help, angry that he wouldn't discuss anything. For my own sake and that of our daughter I left. He didn't care, so I didn't have the added burden of What if he kills himself. After 28 years together, to him I am worth nothing.

I really don't know what is real and what is manipulation or using their illness to get what they want or blame it for how they chose to live their lives. All I know is that I needed to do what was best for me in the end. I stuck it out until I was on the brink of taking my own life. It was the biggest wake up call I ever had. I had been seeing counselors for a long time and they all said the same thing, do what is right for you, leave. I wasn't ready to hear any of it for a very long time. But they were right. I couldn't fix him, only he can do that. I can only fix myself and that is what I am trying hard to do.

I have to admit that I too still love my husband but I realise it is the man I married that I love and he is no longer that man. I don't know who he is anymore and I have tried hard to work it all out. Look after yourself and your children.

 

[rightkindofme]

Wow. He's severely abusing you. If he wants to commit suicide that is between him and his conscious. You deserve a better life. He needs to man up and accept the consequences of his action. If you leave him you will be showing your children that they do not deserve to live with someone who is that seriously mentally ill.

I'm probably going to be unpopular for that. I don't care. I am *really* compulsive sexually. I've been acting out sexually since I was three and I have triple digits of partners. When I made an agreement to be monogamous it was a carefully considered decision. No take backs. If I can keep it in my pants (basically a miracle--I have very low standards) then I don't think anyone should be forgive for multiple indiscretions. Maybe one. Maybe. Maybe.

My maternal grandmother was severely suicidal throughout my mother's life. My mom would tell me stories about coming home and finding her mother on the floor bleeding and having to call an ambulance. If your husband is that sick then it is better that he not be alone with your children at all and that he not live with them. In my opinion that you have no reason to care about. That is my deal with my husband. Before we got married we discussed my level of mental illness. We agreed that if my behavior is that unstable I cannot stay in the family home.

Being in a family is a choice. It comes with responsibilities. He's not meeting his. You can't fix that for him. You will ruin your life if you try.

I'm sorry to be such a big meanie. I've been reading the forum for a while now and my adrenaline is high. I uhhh probably sound more aggressive than I mean.

This is your life. If you are ready to move on, do it.

 

[LhasaLover]

I was the caretaker of someone who did not or could not get better. It ended very badly and I paid a high price. The person was my mother, so I made an exception for her.

It ended with me losing everything I owned (they were tossed into two lockers with moldy things and trash I have to sort and pay for for). She had me falsely arrested for abuse and would refuse to tell the courts she was not testifying which meant a year of me going to hearings. Worst of all, her PTSD became my PTSD as well as I was diagnosed shortly thereafter and cried for several months. She still calls when she wants things, drunk or stoned, and I will not answer the phone. She even took a restraining order out on me would call the police and say I was banging on her front door when I was across the country. She also would try to contact me and be so high she could not understand why she could not talk to me. My brother was pitted against me and both of them would verbally and physically attack me (my brother once, and then completely lied about it and said I was the the guilty one. I was running away from him, in fact!) He had scratches on his arm from the door I was trying to shut that he kept sticking his arms through so he could push the door open.

They left with the settlement from the house they sold, which I had been paying for for 10 years. In addition, I had been supporting my mother both financially and emotionally as she was not well and had to go to the hospital a lot. They moved to be with my brother's wealthy girlfriend. Oh and she has actually contacted me through my father demanding items from the lockers which are a disaster and also asking for money! Up until then, I was one who was forced as the eldest only female to take care of everything and work a demanding job. I was little more than a punching bag and ATM machine to my mother and brother.

It sounds as though you are getting nothing out of this relationship for yourself. I told you some of my story so you do not underestimate how far sick people will go, especially if they are master manipulators. She has OD'd enough just to try to make me not try to go somewhere. Rightkindofme is not being a meanie!

I personally would get a therapist personally to sort this out why are you staying with this person. I would also look into Codependents Anonymous and /or Al-Anon.

You are worth the fight! We are not on this earth to tell other people how to live. If they want to be destructive, that is our choice. All we can do is say our prayers, ask for help, and take care of ourselves.

I hope you stay on the board and build up a support system, my heart goes out for you that you have gone through so much with this person.

You will be doing your husband a favor by not enabling him and letting him know you draw the line. I have been able to heal being separated from my mother and brother and move forward.

It sounds as if it is time for you to heal and start living.

 

[confused_wife]

I guess man reasons I'm still trying is that I don't want my 2 yo and 5 month old to grow up not knowing their dad much like my 4 yo. But I'm torn because I'm also afraid of him getting visitation and something happening while they are there or them picking up his habits. Him turning his manipulation onto the kids when I'm no longer around for him to focus on. I keep hoping he will change because he does these grand shows of affection when I start getting really fed up.

I realize he abuses me emotionally and on occasion I have seen "the look" saying that physical might be coming. I guess I was just hoping that most of it is the PTSD and he could get help to control these behaviors...instead of it being a willing choice on his part. But how can I leave knowing he will be allowed to see my girls without me there to be his focus of all the negatives? They cant handle it and I would never want them to. I would rather give up everything I am to do the best I can for them and try to pave the way for them as best I can to get the h*ll out and away with as little damage as possible.

 

[LhasaLover]

Hi Confused Wife,

I just popped on and am glad to see you response. Your concerns are all very reasonable.

This is why I am suggesting see a tradition psychotherapist, one that specializes in anti-violence and PTSD and talk some of this stuff out. Rome was not built in a day.

Manipulative people have hooks. You may never be fully free of him until your children grow up, but you can minimize the damage. PTSD can be passed on through the generations. Do you know what led up to your husband being diagnosed with PTSD?

You need support, support of this board, of women's agencies, of therapists... I would recommend a female therapist personally. It's a very intelligent and brave of you reach out and ask for help. I hear your concerns and believe them to be valid.

Sure the situation is not healthy for your husband, you or your children. If you husband doesn't want to change, who are you to tell him how to act? It's his life! You can be determined to rehab someone, but it is just not going to mean your efforts are going to work. In fact the more you try to control and change someone, the more they push back.

I also hear you starting to blame yourself a bit, I could be mistaken. This is the type of thinking that keeps people in dangerous, bad situations.

Is it possible for you to get some help in the form of support? A lot of agencies against abuse for women would help you and your children get help. If nothing else, you will gain support and wisdom. Some pay for therapists if you cannot afford to see one on your own. I'm not trying to make you panic or stressed, it's just that there are resources and it's best to use them when dealing with a manipulative person.

I have lost everything and was devastated, but not being my mother's age and episodes is only how I started to heal. I at least got my life back on better terms. Building it back up is hard, but at least I am not in that toxic situation.

I am going to say my prayers for you and your children and hope to see more posts from you!!

 

[Nicolette]

I realize he abuses me emotionally

Sorry but have you listened to yourself? You admit he is abusing you which your children would be subject to yet

But how can I leave knowing he will be allowed to see my girls without me there to be his focus of all the negatives?

you say that you don't want him to have access to the children while you are not present but you are prepared for him to have a full time presence and affect on their life now?

I would rather give up everything I am

Seriously?! Have you forgotten how impressionable children are and that you are a major influence on their lives. You mould who they are based on the example you set..... do you want them to grow up thinking it's not only okay for a woman to be abused by her partner but that it should also be allowed to destroy her as that is what you will be teaching them if nothing changes.

to do the best I can for them

Isn't the best for them protecting them from an abusive environment? I know for a fact that with PTSD you could actually fight for supervised visitation so that's a cop out.

I was just hoping that most of it is the PTSD and he could get help to control these behaviors...instead of it being a willing choice on his part.

Really?! Does it matter - abuse is abuse and do you think that PTSD can be cured over night?! Protect yourself and your children for heaven's sake. Sorry, no sugar coating from me.

I keep hoping he will change because he does these grand shows of affection when I start getting really fed up.

After letting him cause how much damage? How long will you play a part in the abuse cycle (yes - Google diagrams and see what you are a part of).

It saddens me as this thinking is what keeps women in domestic violence situations and the women don't realise that they are also teaching their children to continue the cycle as by staying you are saying it okay - children learn not from just what you say to them but what you show them. Sorry if I am blunt but this infuriates me when you have a choice and that choice is to make sure you and your children are safe.

 

[confused_wife]

Actually Nicolette as you were writing that I was discussing almost everything you said with my mom. Stating exactly what you stated. I'm just trying to work through all the logistics of my situation. Questions are just running through so fast that I am doing my best to slow them down and process everything.

I don't want things sugar coated. I don't work that way with adults. I respect everyones opinions especially when they are said to someone in a situation like mine...and said to help and rattle the cobwebs cause by wishful thinking. I had my cobwebs shaken by myself when I called 911 on him while he was in another state.

I told him last night that we needed to stop everything that we have been doing and be apart because I didn't want my children exposed to everything that has been going on in this toxic relationship. And mimicking it later in life. I told him I can't allow him to make me unstable because I love my kids and they need me and deserve better than this. And that another reason I was doing it now is because he is in a place to deal with his thoughts of killing himself due to me leaving. And if he left there before he can cope and something happens then it is not on me. I was just stating the questions and thoughts that were running thru at the moment. Arguing with myself so to speak.

As for it being slow progress and abuse is abuse. I realize that. Just do not see what is wrong with hoping that some time in the future he would get to a place to allow us to be together. But if it is WHO he is and not because of his disease then I would know there is no hope of it happening. EVER. The last little piece of hope I was hanging onto is all.

 

[rightkindofme]

I guess man reasons I'm still trying is that I don't want my 2 yo and 5 month old to grow up not knowing their dad much like my 4 yo. But I'm torn because I'm also afraid of him getting visitation and something happening while they are there or them picking up his habits. Him turning his manipulation onto the kids when I'm no longer around for him to focus on. I keep hoping he will change because he does these grand shows of affection when I start getting really fed up.

I say this with all of the love in my heart: get out. Your children are young enough that you have the chance to raise them without causing brain damage and attachment issues. If you get into a place of your own where YOU get to set the emotional regulation your children will learn that. They will learn that daddy is sometimes inappropriate but mommy has bloody well shown them how to be appropriate. You are literally not able to do that while living with him because having him as an unstable uncontrollable force in the house will prevent your children from learning emotional regulation.

This is something you can go look up research on. Right now you have the ability to give your children a good childhood IF you can change their environment into a safer place. It doesn't sound like living with him is very safe.

Do you really need for it to get to hitting? Do you want your children to see him do that to you? If you do then you have taught them that it is something moms should experience. :( You don't deserve it and you can get out now before it happens.

Ok, I don't know you or him. I understand that this is just a website. These patterns are so clear and so consistent and I've talked to dozens, maybe over a hundred girls with the same story. If you grow up witnessing domestic abuse you WILL have problems:
"What are the feelings of children who are exposed to battering?
Children who are exposed to battering become fearful and anxious. They are always on guard, watching and waiting for the next event to occur. They never know what will trigger the abuse, and therefore, they never feel safe. They are always worried for themselves, their mother, and their siblings. They may feel worthless and powerless.

Children who grow up with abuse are expected to keep the family secret, sometimes not even talking to each other about the abuse. Children from abusive homes can look fine to the outside world, but inside they are in terrible pain. Their families are chaotic and crazy. They may blame themselves for the abuse thinking if they had not done or said a particular thing, the abuse would not have occurred. They may also become angry at their siblings or their mother for triggering the abuse. They may feel rage, embarrassment, and humiliation.

Children of abuse feel isolated and vulnerable. They are starved for attention, affection and approval. Because mom is struggling to survive, she is often not present for her children. Because dad is so consumed with controlling everyone, he also is not present for his children. These children become physically, emotionally and psychologically abandoned."

"Children who grow up observing their mothers being abused, especially by their fathers, grow up with a role model of intimate relationships in which one person uses intimidation and violence over the other person to get their way. Because children have a natural tendency to identify with strength, they may ally themselves with the abuser and lose respect for their seemingly helpless mother. Abusers typically play into this by putting the mother down in front of her children and telling them that their mother is “crazy” or “stupid” and that they do not have to listen to her. Seeing their mothers treated with enormous disrespect, teaches children that they can disrespect women the way their fathers do."

If you get out you have a chance of showing your children who and what you really are. I'm rooting for you.

 

[rightkindofme]

Cross posting for the win. :)

 

[Deleted member 1860]

I am a sufferer, so this is my sufferer perspective.

Your husband is abusing you. You, and your children deserve better.

PTSD is at the root of some whacky behavior, but in the end, a person CHOOSES to be manipulative. I've been there, done that. It's a horrible place to be, but fortunately I can see where I went wrong and I don't want to be slave to my emotions any longer where I end up resorting to manipulative behavior to get my needs met. Your husband is an adult and he is perfectly capable of getting his needs met without resorting to manipulation. That's just his way of controlling you.

PTSD does not make someone cheat. I think that's all I have to say about that one, lol!

I can only guess that the unwanted sexual act was something along the lines of rape? (The one where he fell asleep.) Just remember, next time he may not fall asleep.

And when he texts you, alluding to harming himself then ignores you for the next few hours? Pure manipulation, plain and simple. He won't let you leave; drawing you back in with threats of self harm/suicide (veiled, I take it); and your guilt kicks in so you come back. I think he knows he can control you, because you let him get away with it.

Don't want him to get custody? Start documenting anything and everything, NOW. All texts, emails, phone calls, etc. If you can show the courts proof of his unstable, erratic, abusive behavior, the less likely he is to get custody.

I hope you're strong enough to do what's best for you and your kids. Don't let him manipulate you into staying with threats of suicide. It's not your responsibility to keep him alive.

 

[Bilby]

I'm concerned about the situation that you and your children are in. There is no doubt that he is emotionally abusing you, but you have also indicated physical abuse in your opening post:

an unwanted sexual attempt that he passed out during

You have also indicated that it is something that you fear:

on occasion I have seen "the look" saying that physical might be coming

For your safety, and that of your children, I hope you are seriously weighing up what you can do to get out, and keep safe.

It's my opinion that PTSD can explain some things, but it can't explain just plain old bad behaviour, and it can't explain the cheating. I'd have zero tolerance for that.

I appreciate that you must be in a very difficult position, but I really hope that you are able to make the decision that is the best one for you and your kids - you all deserve a happy, healthy and safe life - you only get one, after all.

B x