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Why is relationship so scary for some sufferers?

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I agree that ptsd in some instances taints and probably shapes our relationships and how they work for us and others. Of course it does.

In some instances I think it ruins what could have been beautiful but in others it also creates another kind of beautiful.

There are many absolutely awesome relationships that I get a glimpse of by both sufferers and supporters on this forum for instance.

People grow, change and I don't know - sometimes good things come out of the wreckage of this mental illness. Other times it destroys whatever good could have been. It's a bit of a lottery isn't it?

I expect very little in the relationships stakes. Or, maybe I expect a lot or too much? Not sure anymore but anyway I'm not convinced in my case and I wonder in your circumstance, if you can entirely attribute ptsd to be the only cause for the failure of all of your relationships and the reason you choose not to enter personal relationships.

I too have withdrawn from the one on one, spousal, cohabitating type of relationship arena. I don't want to risk myself and my wellness that far. Perhaps I am completely wrong and should be throwing myself into the fray and seeing if that type of relationship is ok for me. But I don't want to anymore. So I completely understand your point of view.

But it's still a choice I make. It's based on lots of reasons but not purely ptsd.

I too have relationships with friends, my children, grand children and I too shut the door and hibernate after relatively short periods of time in their company. That says nothing about them though. They are wonderful and I am responsible for how I feel.

I wonder if it's to do with my ptsd or really more likely simply that I am not used to that level of interaction and activity? I avoid stressful circumstances and people. Children and grandchildren are wonderful and I love them but they are still stressful.

The only relief is to keep encounters to a minimum and give myself some time before engaging again.

^Everyone does this to a certain extent.

Perhaps your ptsd means that this is a very finite and definite not negotiable time period.

Perhaps for others it is less defined.

But, I know that everyone has their predefined limits in terms of relationships.

Maybe mental illness, ptsd, whatever has some bearing on where those limits may be, but also completely 'healthy' people choose when to shut the door, take a break, see or do something else too.
 
But I cannot have one with anyone without feeling anywhere on the scale of uncomfortable to totally traumatized inside".
This is a great thread and this quote summarizes what I think happens to the guy I love. The closest he came to saying so is telling me that the intimacy makes him nauseus and the nasea brings out shame and anger. The reaction can come days after we have had a lovely time. We see each other again after months and each encounter is more tender with more distance in between. Can you relate to this Crushed or is it different for you? The fact that we can spend longer periods of time together might indicate some healing like in prolonged confrontational therapy.
 
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This thread should probably be moved over to the supporters area. I could do that, but instead, I'm going to take the opportunity to speak freely.
I'm not sure the word "done" describes what you're doing. I get that it's hard. I find it frustrating to read your double standards, though, when it comes to his inaction vs your inaction, though.
There's a point where you can stop saying "we're done", and just stop responding. Maybe that point has arrived?
Just as it's your choice to continue to think about him, re-tread all the elements of your relationship with him, and not just end it. To a certain extent, accepting one's illness is not altogether a bad thing. Your assumption is that he should want his intimate relationships to work a certain way, and that if he won't agree to that definition of "relationship", then there's something wrong with him. There very well might be. But is there a particular reason why dealing with relational issues needs to be his priority right now? Friends might matter more to him than getting into therapy to make a relationship with you work for you.
He can do whatever he wants. That's how boundaries work. It's nothing to do with the rules you impose on him, it's the rules you set for yourself. And as long as your thinking is, "maybe I'll contact him" - you're far more trapped in this negative spiral than he is. I'd say, it's possible he's doing just fine (vis-a-vis him and you).

Lets reframe: you were allowing yourself to be torn up by his unwillingness to commit. If you've reached your breaking point, then use that: break the connection with him.

You're doing this to yourself, so far as I can see.
It is his choice to seek therapy or not. And if he does, it should be for him...not for me or us. He doesn’t believe therapy will help him. I don’t understand why he at least doesn’t want to try. Again his choice and I have never pushed him to seek help....never...he is a grown man and makes his own choices. But that doesn’t me I understand his choice.
We had agreed on no contact for a long period. After a month he contacted and wanted me back. I was doing a lot better during that month that I have done for over two years and I was not tempted to contact him at all. I responded and told him no again. I saw him about ten days ago after 1,5 months....for one hour and it was okay...I haven’t missed him since I saw him. He has been a part of my life for almost 6,5 years and the feeling I still have now is pure addiction and friendship. Breaking that addiction takes time.
When he contacted me I should have told him not to contact me again, but when he kept asking to see me I caved in after a couple of week...I wanted to see him.... if the distance built up over a month of no communication was actually so strong that I could move on....and it was. Yes he is still very attractive but I was okay with seeing him. I am not at a place where I want to be his friend and he can’t see me just as a friend...it messes with his head. I have made it quite clear that he can’t contact me again and if he does I will politely tell him, not to do it again.
When I think about him, I don’t want him back....I think about my own patterns, why I let myself be sucked into it over and over again...that maybe I have abondment issues because I was married for 17 years with a man, who wanted to run away when I didn’t fit into his idea of how I should be. He didn’t want a divorce but he threatened with it many, many times (he had his scars from an abusive mom). Som I often had to convince him that I loved him and why he should stay...he need a lot of attention and love. So I had to fight 17 years for him and over two years for my ex sufferer. I am learning from this! I am setting boundaries....breaking the habit of fighting for somebody when I really have to let them go to save myself from heartache.

He is actually far more caught in the spiral than I am...He contacted me after a month. He can’t stay away...I can. He is the one who keeps coming back even though it messes with his head. He would have been so much better off without contacting me after a month. That is on him. He is addicted too and it is a lot harder for him to break the addiction than it is for me. He misses me, I dont miss him, but I do have to figure out why I stayed....work with me. I am not beating myself up about it....just have to learn from the process. And IF at one point I feel it would be nice to go back to being friends...like we were for four years before we became involved, then maybe I will contact him and see how he feels about that.
 
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He is actually far more caught in the spiral than I am...

^You simply cannot know this. You cannot read his mind. You can only know yourself and what you do.

To me, unfortunately Butterfly you are caught in your own echo chamber. You keep saying the same things again and again and I suspect in the saying you are hoping that it will become more real.

I'm sorry but there is no progress from your original post. You have not sorted anything much out. You are still stuck. Still dredging up time frames as justification for why your relationship with this man meant something or should mean more.

You are still saying how much he loves you, he is addicted to you and how you are in control. But are you really?

Are you angry with him or yourself that you cannot move on? Is that why you are so invested in this non relationship? Anger can hold us from moving on too.

I don't know anything except what you write repeatedly on this forum. I suspect he will keep coming around for what he wants from you until you decide to stop him from doing so.

It's not about him stopping anything. It's about you stopping. And you stepping out of this dysfunctional relationship and hearing something new and doing something new, for yourself... just for yourself. I hope you do.
 
^You simply cannot know this. You cannot read his mind. You can only know yourself and what you do.

To me, unfortunately Butterfly you are caught in your own echo chamber. You keep saying the same things again and again and I suspect in the saying you are hoping that it will become more real.

I'm sorry but there is no progress from your original post. You have not sorted anything much out. You are still stuck. Still dredging up time frames as justification for why your relationship with this man meant something or should mean more.

You are still saying how much he loves you, he is addicted to you and how you are in control. But are you really?

Are you angry with him or yourself that you cannot move on? Is that why you are so invested in this non relationship? Anger can hold us from moving on too.

I don't know anything except what you write repeatedly on this forum. I suspect he will keep coming around for what he wants from you until you decide to stop him from doing so.

It's not about him stopping anything. It's about you stopping. And you stepping out of this dysfunctional relationship and hearing something new and doing something new, for yourself... just for yourself. I hope you do.

He keeps telling me that he misses me, that he can’t let me go...he keeps telling me he is caught in the spiral...that I have to stop it because he can’t. These are his words...not mine! I said it once and will say it again...I do not miss him. I know that he is simply an addiction, but for each passing day the addiction fades away and seeing him ten days ago proved to me that I can see him and not want him.
And no...I am not angry with myself. I am puzzled and so I am trying to figure out why I led it go on for two years. There is a lot of progress! I really dont want him! If I did I would still be with him and I am not. He says he is ready for intimacy in the bedroom now...which is a huge step for him, but I don’t want that. I want to let go of the remains of the addiction and I am doing a LOT better than I have done for a long time. Whether you believe that or not is up to you. The only thing that matters to me, is that I know I have come a long way because there was no contact for a month. Maybe he loves me and can’t act on it, maybe he can’t feel love...I don’t know and the outcome is the same....I don’t want him, BUT I am entitled to wonder what the f*ck happened, why I was so afraid of loosing him that I didn’t set boundaries, or rather I set them and when he walked all over them, I started running away. I am in a process of wondering WTF happened in order to learn from this experience ...and that takes time and why shouldn’t I allow myself that time...that does NOT mean I want him back, because I really do not....you can desire someone and still not want them because they are no good for you....I am not stuck on him...I am stuck on the whole experience....learning from it...again WTF happened...why did I let it happen. I actually think that when a relationship doesn’t work out because PTSD is involved it takes a lot longer to heal...not because you still love and want to get back together, but because there were so many mixed signals, so many unanswered questions...because you simply do not know why you kept holding on for too long....and that is what I am figuring out now. Believe it or not ?
 
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I agree that ptsd in some instances taints and probably shapes our relationships and how they work for us and others. Of course it does.
Maybe mental illness, ptsd, whatever has some bearing on where those limits may be, but also completely 'healthy' people choose when to shut the door, take a break, see or do something else too.

i feel my ptsd experience is being minimized if I think this way. I totally recognize others without ptsd have limits of interaction depending on how they experience their life. I don't believe these ones have the trauma associated with such decisions. They cannot be put in the same category of experience as those of us who need to rely on an on-line ptsd forum to help navigate their experience.... those of us who shake in our boots often at the thought of an interaction; even though we are interacting with friends and loved ones. Those of us whose innerworld is a battlefield 24/7. In my world, PTSD has more than "some" bearing on my limits with others... it has "complete" bearing. This is my experience anyway. Thanks for hearing me!

This is a great thread and this quote summarizes what I think happens to the guy I love. The closest he came to saying so is telling me that the intimacy makes him nauseus and the nasea brings out shame and anger. The reaction can come days after we have had a lovely time. We see each other again after months and each encounter is more tender with more distance in between. Can you relate to this Crushed or is it different for you? The fact that we can spend longer periods of time together might indicate some healing like in prolonged confrontational therapy.

Yes, candor, i do relate to your guys experience with you. (Actually, I did not realize I am on a supporter thread but am getting it as I continue here....but I'll keep interacting, if ok with other threaders as I realize it is a deviation of the original subject). What I picked up from your description is acceptance. He has found someone who meets him right were he is. Who does not want human contact and a feeling of safety?? I agree, as he feels safe/accepted with each encounter with you, he can stay a little longer. For me, if I sense that someone wants more from me than I can offer, I run! Maybe these "on occasion" interactions work for you with no more expectations like "someday he will ......." If so, he is a fortunate man to find a friend like you. I have a few friends who I see or speak to on occasion who see me differently than I am able to see myself and I have learned to be able to think of them as friends.
 
Sometimes as a PTSD sufferer, I pull back from a relationship because I don't want someone to fight for me. I want a friend, partner, etc. I don't want to be fixed or changed. I try to not go around seeing myself as broken. I pull away from anyone who treats me as damaged and in need of repair, and it's usually well meaning by the other person. I don't want to be rescued or fought for, and sometimes people start to do that, meaning nothing but good for me, and it makes the relationship harder for me to engage. Of course I feel worthless and etc, and I have PTSD, I have a condition that needs management, etc. The types of relationships I want to cuddle up to are the ones for which this is true: "When we honestly ask ourselves which person in our lives mean the most to us, we often find that it is those who, instead of giving advice, solutions, or cures... who can tolerate not knowing, not curing, not healing and face with us the reality of our powerlessness, that is a friend who cares." - Henry Nowen.

We had agreed on no contact for a long period.
Not a boundary. Boundaries do not need agreement. Boundaries are what you do to control what you let into your life.
He is actually far more caught in the spiral than I am...He contacted me after a month. He can’t stay away...I can.
If someone is truly done and setting boundaries with someone who continues to contact them, they do things such as block their number. That's a boundary. Have you blocked his number to no longer allow him into your life? If you have not, then you are still allowing him in your life. You can say you are done but you are setting yourself up to have him contact you again.
So I had to fight 17 years for him and over two years for my ex sufferer. I am learning from this! I am setting boundaries....breaking the habit of fighting for somebody when I really have to let them go to save myself from heartache..
Have you thought about counseling to explore and resolve what is underlying this compulsive (aka addictive) habit of "fighting for" someone else?
I really dont want him!
I really don't think you want to specifically him at all. Your resistance to accepting him as he is right now, without changing, is it quite clear. That's him. You don't want it. I think you have a drive to continue to allow the idea of him or someone else in your life that you can "fight for" as a way of evading your own stuff (and we all have stuff.) If you don't deal with the underlying issues in your own life to led to this pattern, there is a good chance this pattern will come out in another way. That's how addiction tends to work. If you are an addict, it's probably time to get help.

And in the meantime, maybe consider blocking his number? He'll be just fine, maybe even a lot better off to be prevented from continuing to contact you. You don't need his agreement - but even if you did, you already have a no-contact agreement. Help yourself to follow that agreement out by blocking his number. Begin to define boundaries for yourself from figuring him out, and begin to work on you and fight for you.
 
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thanks for the book recommendation, candor! I am reading authors preview and find this information so extremely pertinent/helpful to where I am at currently at. here is the link to the book Dead Link Removed
 
I too have been told by posters on this forum that I have not moved on in 4 years :-)
@blackemerald1: When I read your post, I also thought : "You simply cannot know this. You cannot read Butterfly's mind. You can only know yourself and what you do. " SMILE! We all need this reminder you put out there and as repetitious as any post may seem to you, I want to gently and kindly remind you that each reader of any post may have a different experience. I know very well that Butterfly does not need me to do her battles or come to her defense. I do so cause I personally was about to write a post about how much stronger and how far she seemed to have gotten. Maybe I am wrong and you are right blackemerald1. It is all projection and perspective. I relate so very well to Butterfly's original curiosity "Why is it scary to sufferers?"... We all suffer (iow ..loose control??) when we feel an inability to control emotions and behaviours. Addicts are always asking themselves why can't I stop? In my case, I want to become more compassionate and more accepting of people who rage. The part of me that is scared to death is discovering another part that resists hurting someone who is already in pain. At work, I no longer fall apart when people rage. Nor do I feel a need to help them. And define please non relationship? I have many friendships that have lasted 40+ years and the intimacy changes in that time. And what about online relationships .. if you are growing and learning then these so called non relationships count. The idea that everyone you know is just a simulation created for you by your brain has become a less odd idea by younger generations who like all of us are entitled to ask questions. Having decided to have a relationship with someone who is hurting more often than he is not comes with a lot of responsibility. Even if I am ghosted which I may well already be, it is the realization that anyone can be the object of our love whether they believe to deserve it or not. The feeling may well fade but the ride was worth it. And if that makes me stuck in others eyes then I prefer them to keep their thoughts to themselves cause I would do it all again.
 
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Let's back up a bit. This thread was started to ask why relationships are scary to sufferers. Sufferers are explaining why relationships are "scary" to them, or why they don't get closer in relationships, and every now and then a sufferer mentions something a supporter does that means well but doesn't contribute to the type fo relationship that sufferers feel not scared to engage. Because it was straight up requested to know why sufferers find relationships scary. I could be wrong, but it seems like explanations are given and a few supporters here are resisting accepting the explanations given are true for the sufferers, and it seems to echo the pattern of the same resistance to sufferers' partners explaining why things are the way for them offline. That's my sense of things, and it might be worth backing up to the goal of the thread of finding out what sufferers think, as this was posted in the sufferer forum.

For supporters struggling with relationship addiction if you don't want sufferers' sometimes frank opinions expressed about the relationship addiction (including opinions about how said relationship addition might affect their desire to be close in said relationship) it might be best to seek that by starting a thread in the supporter section about relationship addiction. Simply a thought. Sufferers are not in the heads of supporters but we are in our own and I've tried to explain things from my own perspective, take it or leave it.
In my case, I want to become more compassionate and more accepting of people who rage.
I have held compassion for people who rage without allowing space for the rage in my life. Sort of like I can have compassion for those that might take a dump in my living room, but also keep boundaries to not allow my living room to become someone's toilet again (and rage is like taking a destructive dump on intimacy in a relationship.) Love doesn't render us helpless to have boundaries. Fear and addiction can drive a lack of boundaries, but let's not confuse that with love.

As a sufferer, I feel a lot safer with people who have boundaries and are willing to hold them with me. Not agreements. Boundaries. It feels safe, solid, easier. "No" isn't a dirty word to me. It creates space to trust and allows for "yes." A lack of boundaries, which usually happens in the name of compassion, leads me to feel more anxious and hesitant in a relationship. If someone said to me they are accepting of rage in a relationship, then they are telling me what they will allow in their life. That doesn't help me feel safe with them to know they allow rage into their circle. To me, safe people don't allow rage to go on and on by others in their circle and life the name of acceptance. A supporter can argue it's for the good of sufferers like me to accept rage into one's life... ok that can be your opinion. I don't have that experience or perspective. I don't know many sufferers who think allowing rage is a great way to reduce scared feelings related to PTSD in a relationship.

Sufferers tend to be hypervigilant. One consequence of hypervigilance for me is that I can pick up on the emotional states of others (and I have to work to not try to mind read the causes for whatever I pick up on.) I've had a supporter more or less addicted to me. It changes the relationship itself, like all addictions and compulsive behaviors. It's not about right or wrong, but just is. It's doesn't feel safe. It feels bad. It can be hard to pull away from what feels bad, as many toxic cycles are hard to pull away from, but that doesn't mean it feels safe to lean into it either. Compulsivity makes it harder for others to be close in all types of relationships, and PTSD relationships are not an exception. In fact, sufferers might be even more jumpy about it. I really lothe to be anyone's source of "a lot of responsibility." Supporters are not responsible for me, and when they try to be, that feels bad. Not good. I know it's done in the name of compassion, and that is good to have that heart of compassion... but I personally get nervous and pull away when people try to take responsibility for my adult self. A supporter can and often does have a different opinion if it is good or not to do what supporters do. But if a supporter wants to know what sufferers think you may have to sit with opinions and experiences and perceptions that are different than their own.

If the goal is for a relationship to feel scary and challenging for a sufferer, I suggest pouring compassion into boundaries and reducing compulsive behaviors instead of allowing rage into one's life. It may work better than the years of behavior analysis of sufferers.
 
Sometimes as a PTSD sufferer, I pull back from a relationship because I don't want someone to fight for me. I want a friend, partner, etc. I don't want to be fixed or changed. I try to not go around seeing myself as broken. I pull away from anyone who treats me as damaged and in need of repair, and it's usually well meaning by the other person. I don't want to be rescued or fought for, and sometimes people start to do that, meaning nothing but good for me, and it makes the relationship harder for me to engage. Of course I feel worthless and etc, and I have PTSD, I have a condition that needs management, etc. The types of relationships I want to cuddle up to are the ones for which this is true: "When we honestly ask ourselves which person in our lives mean the most to us, we often find that it is those who, instead of giving advice, solutions, or cures... who can tolerate not knowing, not curing, not healing and face with us the reality of our powerlessness, that is a friend who cares." - Henry Nowen.


Not a boundary. Boundaries do not need agreement. Boundaries are what you do to control what you let into your life.

If someone is truly done and setting boundaries with someone who continues to contact them, they do things such as block their number. That's a boundary. Have you blocked his number to no longer allow him into your life? If you have not, then you are still allowing him in your life. You can say you are done but you are setting yourself up to have him contact you again.

Have you thought about counseling to explore and resolve what is underlying this compulsive (aka addictive) habit of "fighting for" someone else?

I really don't think you want to specifically him at all. Your resistance to accepting him as he is right now, without changing, is it quite clear. That's him. You don't want it. I think you have a drive to continue to allow the idea of him or someone else in your life that you can "fight for" as a way of evading your own stuff (and we all have stuff.) If you don't deal with the underlying issues in your own life to led to this pattern, there is a good chance this pattern will come out in another way. That's how addiction tends to work. If you are an addict, it's probably time to get help.

And in the meantime, maybe consider blocking his number? He'll be just fine, maybe even a lot better off to be prevented from continuing to contact you. You don't need his agreement - but even if you did, you already have a no-contact agreement. Help yourself to follow that agreement out by blocking his number. Begin to define boundaries for yourself from figuring him out, and begin to work on you and fight for you.
Thank you ? I blocked his number yesterday. I definitely do not want another man I can fight to keep...it is just bad luck it happened twice. My first husband of 13 years was very “normal”....sorry ? We had a good, solid and stable marriage and parted as friends. My ex sufferer never mentioned PTSD the four years we were friends...actually the first I heard of it was about eight months into the “relationship“. Of course I had a hard time understanding the push-pull. I gathered it was because he had been “trapped” in the early retirement system for app. 5 years at that point and he said that had affected him. I have never wanted to save him, nor my second husband...actually...and this is not nice I know, but I reached a point a couple of months ago where I don’t even feel particularly sorry for my ex sufferer.

I understand completely you don’t want to be fixed....we can’t fix people and nor should we try. We can offer our love and support when we care for people...be it a friend, partner or relative. I have never pushed for him to get help...I have said that I hope he will be ready for it some day, because he deserves to be in a better place.
The boundaries I set for him was not to go no contact. It was regarding more private issues.

I really appreciate your input...as I have stated before...I think the sufferers here are amazing ❤️ I only wish my ex could be more like you regarding communication...and yes I know it is easier to be open on this site than in real life.
 
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