Van Der Kolk On Mindfulness And Why It May Cause Dissociation

[shimmerz]

not that mindfulness practices don't always work or can't work for some, or so on.

Yes, agreed. And thank you for pointing that out Shamrock. Much like when they put me into CBT - while I was still being stalked and harassed. A horrible combination. It is good to know that there are stages to each of these therapies - and that we are not failures if we are not quite there yet.

 

[Deleted member 34424]

Bessel would make you do mindfulness practices in any stage; some are very light like tapping acupressure points on the body or telling him what sensations you feel in your hands. That's very basic mindfulness and it grounds you in the present instead of you spinning out of control with your bodily sensations and not able to talk or function while in session. Then you have to do the same practices outside to keep you in the present.

 

[Deleted member 34424]

The goal for all trauma survivors is to be in the present, practicing mindfulness without being scared of bodily sensations that arise.

It's difficult; I'm on that path of being terrified and ashamed of body memory happenings in my genitals. But in any way I can't make it go away (unless the future EMDR or other therapy does help it to go away; we shall see) so you have to be not as bothered it not bothered by it.

 

[Poofycat]

This makes a lot of sense to me. I used to be a long distance runner before PTSD reared it's ugly head. Now I can't stand running because I hate being alone in my head. I have trouble with gentle forms of yoga for the same reason. I've found that power yoga works for me pretty well, but climbing has been the very best. It forces me to be very aware of every single part of my body, rely on parts of my body that seem foreign to me (my right arm in particular), and move in very unfamiliar ways. My mind has to connect to my whole body on a deep level, but it's also solving simple problems at the same time so it's not overwhelming.

 

[ground crew]

I too have trouble meditating. The mindfullness thing is something I have been working with. It helps to make the exercises short for me. I was injured and needed to rehab at the gym daily for a while and got into a habit of going so still do. The mindfulness part is when i focus on the specific exercise and proper form as well as the mussels used. Just stay focused for the set. Short little mindfulness exercises. Several times.

The journey getting to that point involved a lot of therapy to include emdr and cbt, an interesting group and a lot of introspection.

 

[Deleted member 34424]

I don't have an issue with meditation (I'm a Buddhist, so it's kinda mandatory lol). Do I cry? of course. Am I ever uncomfortable? Yes. But what people don't realize is that's the point.

 

[tontoe]

thank you @shimmerz for this thread and to everybody else who's contributed. I read the thread and a light went on - this has really helped me understand something about me and my experiences.

This particularly resonated for me...

Oh dear. I meditated for a while with a group and everything started to fall apart. I felt pieces of me falling off, like who I am . It was terrible. Of course "We NEVER heard of THAT!"
Ummm. Now I know why. Thank you

20 years ago, recovering from what had been diagnosed as a "Nervous Breakdown" [whatever that is!?], the T I was seeing at that time recommended meditation.

I tried various practices, none of which seemed to "work" [i.e. they didn't make me feel any better]. It culminated in my doing a 10-day silent retreat at a Buddhist monastery, during which I had a pretty terrifying time - hallucinations and the works.

I could see many other people seeming to get great benefits from quietness and introspection, while I felt I was going crazy and would likely end up in long-term psychiatric care. I think it was only the kindness and compassion of the monks that helped me through it.

I came away convinced that if meditation and mindfulness didn't work for me, and it patently worked for most people, there must be something wrong with me, and as I see now, actually added fuel to the fires of self-abasement and self loathing.

Looking back with what I know now, I understand why I didn't just leave - although I felt trapped and terrified, I thought I was weak and that if I would just "tough it out", it would be like some sort of rite of passage from which I would emerge, transformed.

I realise now that what I was experiencing was severe dissociation. It's so heartening to hear that others have had similar experiences.

Of course, meditation and mindfulness can be extremely beneficial, but for me with CPTSD [undiagnosed back then], it was like trying to put out a fire with gasoline and not understanding why the flames weren't being doused.

This thread has helped me become mindful of [yet more] things of which I previously wasn't - a step in a positive direction for me!

 

[shimmerz]

Do I cry? of course. Am I ever uncomfortable? Yes. But what people don't realize is that's the point.

I think that it is important to note that a good T understands our 'Windows of Tolerance'. It is all fine and dandy to try meditation and perhaps do a 'bit' of pre meditative stuff - but that WE are not to judge how much we should be able to do - if we aren't ready, we aren't ready for the full monty meditation thing.

I think if one struggles with meditation it is important to discuss with a qualified T to see what we are actually 'ready' for and not bash ourselves when others are so caught up on how 'great meditation is'. As Van der Kolk says, it is a process. And we need to be mindful of where we are - and if we don't know - go to someone qualified and stop damning ourselves in the process.

Bessel would make you do mindfulness practices in any stage; some are very light like tapping acupressure points on the body or telling him what sensations you feel in your hands.

This is what I mean by the Window of Tolerance. I am certain he can see where we are at - and be mindful for us.

 

[Deleted member 34424]

I think that it is important to note that a good T understands our 'Windows of Tolerance'. It is all...

And why I mentioned different types.

If you don't start somewhere with mindfullness, you won't get very far.

 

[shimmerz]

If you don't start somewhere with mindfullness

Sorry @ShamrockChalk, I don't mean to allude to your being mistaken, or to challenge you at all.

Let me try again, as I seem to have problems articulating what I am saying. I could NEVER meditate. I never knew why. My idea of what meditation was had more to do with mainstream expectations. So perhaps I should be adjusting this statement:

He mentions that perhaps mindfulness is NOT always a good thing and needs to be worked up to for those of us who dissociate heavily.

He mentions that mindfulness is a process and that the patient's window of tolerance should be carefully assessed prior to 'jumping all in to the mainstream vision of mindfulness/meditation'. Care must be taken depending of the trauma history of the patient.

Does that fit better?

 

[tontoe]

More resonance for me here!

If you don't start somewhere with mindfullness, you won't get very far.

Yes! baby steps to start in my case, but getting bigger all the time...

we need to be mindful of where we are - and if we don't know - go to someone qualified and stop damning ourselves in the process

...and yes again - my T [trained and worked with Peter Levine] has helped me greatly with this. Something I didn't realise for a long time!

 

[Hope4Now]

Reading this thread today plucked a chord. Earlier I was reading a book about how to live well with chronic pain and chronic illness (half of it is mindfulness suggestions). Van der Kolk is an amazing healer, and writes so well about trauma survivors. I wish I had known about his work and recommendations before I stumbled blindly into the path of meditation/mindfulness without knowing what would happen.

Mindfulness meditation is strong stuff. I'm a living example of its potential dangers for people with complex and developmental trauma. I started meditating after a year or so of failure to cure my chronic pain. It led to a slow, intense breakdown because it opened up all sorts of body memories. I had a lot of shit go down--from visions and extreme body memory acting out and panic and emerging memories. It totally destabilized me, and that was around four years ago...and I'm still trying to get back to solid ground. However, it also allowed me to start on the path with a trauma therapist, for which I am grateful.

I have had a lot of experience with mindfulness meditation. Depending on where I am in my process, sometimes I can do it and stay grounded, sometimes I cannot. It is very difficult to recognize when one is flying off into dissociation, especially if you practice mindfulness by just sitting and focusing on the breath.

I have found that I do much better when I practice mindfulness meditation while doing something that engages my body and my mind, particularly my hands. Now my mindfulness activities that I "schedule in" are knitting, beading, and even working puzzles. But I aim to practice it in other ways too--when I am gardening, when I am washing dishes, etc.

Sometimes I don't check in with the emotions at all...just feel the physical sensations. Soap and water on the hands, feet in the soil, the colors of the beads, the shapes of the puzzle pieces. A lot of traumatic "noise" explodes as the backdrop, and I notice it but keep the intention of focusing on my task. This helps most of the time to keep me from me falling into the traumatic stuff. But sometimes, the background noise gets noisier, and although I continue to do the task, I'm no longer mindful and grounded in the present experience. Sometimes I fall in and totally dissociate into a flashback. Other times I dissociate in other ways--going onto auto-pilot and just doing what I'm doing without any mindfulness at all...just mindlessly doing the task while I am "somewhere else." Other times I can notice when I'm flying off...and catch myself, and return to the mindful present with its sensory experiences in the here and now. It is a practice, and I am practicing. Kind of like keeping your perspective in just the right place. Focusing the binoculars.

After all of my experiences, I am convinced that some form of mindfulness is essential to healing trauma, because trauma is stored in the body and one has to learn to center in the body in order to get to healing. But I certainly agree it must go a little at a time, or it can overwhelm. And it is so important to recognize that there are all different ways to be mindful, all different ways to meditate. You don't have to just sit on a cushion and breathe. You just have to find little ways to bring it into your daily activities. It is all easier said than done. But as a three year veteran of daily mindfulness practice, I can say that it has helped a lot of my parts learn to trust that there is safety in the present, and in this body here and now.