News Potentially 4 Million Muslims Killed Since 1990

[ms spock]

This is an interesting article. I have been watching the body counts on and off. Does anyone else have any information on this? I am interested to know what is out there.

Dead Link Removed

 

[Casey_03]

This is sad. I don't really have any data on this, but when I first read this thread I thought of the film "Eye in the Sky." If you haven't seen it, it's worth watching. It's not necessarily about Muslims, but about the West's use of drones and how it has changed warfare and essentially made it much easier to kill people without a second thought. It's a Hollywood movie, not a sophisticated documentary or anything, but I think it captured the ethical dilemma inherent in using drones. It had me sobbing.

 

[Justmehere]

The group that did the "study" above is a heavily biased group with a political agenda and has released a number of "studies" that are usually widely debunked. They are not an unbiased source and I don't know if their numbers are trustworthy or not. I, like you, would like to see other studies that would validate those numbers from credible sources. The Lancet story they refer to is pretty well regarded and their study was actually done pretty well. They put the figure at about 1/2 a million.

Others have stated 10 million have died since 1948 at the hands of other Muslims by the year 2011. This doesn't count the civil wars in Syria and Iraq and post Arab Spring deaths. You are being redirected...

But this is from another biased group as well.

The problem is not as much in counting deaths but who they blame for them. War isn't simple except that it's always tragic.

(This all being said, it is my opinion that the US needs to stop with the drone killings. From what little I know about it, it seems to do so much harm and very little good.)

 

[Virtues]

"...For instance, although 40,000 corpses had been buried in Najaf since the launch of the war, IBC recorded only 1,354 deaths in Najaf for the same period. That example shows how wide the gap is between IBC’s Najaf figure and the actual death toll..."

I operated in Najaf quite frequently... I highly doubt there are 40k corpses buried there

 

[Friday]

This means that in Iraq alone, the US-led war from 1991 to 2003 killed 1.9 million Iraqis; then from 2003 onwards around 1 million: totaling just under 3 million Iraqis dead over two decades.

FFS... We're being blamed for all the deaths during Iraq under Sadam's Regime after we left??? Including sanitation related deaths??? No wonder the number is so fawking high.

Meanwhile how about the genocide against Ethnic Albanian Muslims we STOPPED in the Balkans, in the 1990s?

 

[Ronin]

Meanwhile how about the genocide against Ethnic Albanian Muslims we STOPPED

Yeah man, or training military & LEOs & NGO workers in about every dumphole to actually restore the f*cking order, or all the patroling and security, or.... yep. Feeling you.

Just glad the thread is not Eebil Muslims for once, but not glad it's Eebil US Forces.

 

[ms spock]

Thanks @Justmehere @Florian7051 @Friday @Cashew so which ones would you see as credible or have y come across evidence that you have assessed as being credible?

 

[Friday]

@Ms Spock... Blaming the US for the state of Iraq post our first go at them, is no different than blaming the state of Iraq on the UK for all the deaths in Iraq since they invaded in 1961 (to stop Iraq invading Kuwait, actually).

It's easy to blame the victors of a war, for the very natural events that happen following losing a war. We're especially keen to, this generation, because the result of WWI -and the west's deliberate grinding of Germany postwar- primed the country better than any other thing could have to initiate WWII. It was a hard lesson to learn... And in many ways we've so overcompensated, that it was -also in many ways- far more profitable to lose a war to the West... Because we would entirely fund the reconstruction of that country. The trains (most advanced in the world for decades, if not still) & manufacturing colossus of Japan? The monumental funding of Western Germany (while East Germany starved)... Has promoted a lot of feints in the geopolitical sphere over the last half century trying to get Western Capital, as well as the utterly failed policy of "Nation Building" where we tried to take reconstruction a step further. (Looks at Afghanistan :shifty: & too many Meso & South American countries to even begin to list).

((Just to be exceptionally clear, I'm not saying that the hundreds of thousands deaths in Africa, Italy, Japan, & Germany were a price paid for reconstruction. I'm saying that -basically- the US took on the rebuilding of Japan, and Europe took on the rebuilding of Western Germany... And that worked so strongly in those 2 countries favor AND in the world economy, that we've tried to repeat that formula ever since... And have failed at it.))

This article takes those failed policies of nation building a step further... Not just assuming that the victors "should" rebuild any country they fight -and win- against, but should do so in such a manner that their own government is not even responsible for sanitation??? Much less their own horrifying treatment & abuses of their own citizens. Laying blame for a sovereign state entirely in the lap of one of the countries who participated in stopping them from invading another country against international law.

Iraq tried to annex Kuwait. Again. Iraq was stopped.

And now the US is responsible for every evil that has happened in Iraq, (perpetrated largely by its own government, against its own people), since then??? From 1991 onwards???

I think not.

 

[joeylittle]

They put the figure at about 1/2 a million.

Yes - that's correct. In order to get to the 4million number, you have to take the counts from Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. You also have to update from the Lancet study (which was ½ a million in 2011).

The documentation for Afghanistan and Pakistan is very poor; but when you look at the larger study (by the Physicians for Social Responsibility) that the article is quoting from, it adds up to anywhere from 1 to 2 million deaths from 2003-2014. That's a pretty big spread, as far as 'unconfirmed' goes.

The other figure being used is one estimate from the Gulf War (those numbers are a real mess to try and sort through), and then the UN estimated total Iraqi deaths as a result of the US/UK sanctions imposed on Iraq, following the gulf war - which has been repeatedly published as 1.7 million. That is for the period from 1990-2003, which is when the sanctions were lifted, following the iraq war.

The sanctions, in my opinion, were rough. I think the Iraqi people got squeezed in-between the power struggle of the US+UK vs Saddam Hussein. Personally, I'm not a fan of the choices my government was making at the time.

Some other, random links:
The Human Cost of the War in Iraq
Iraqi Civilians | Costs of War
http://www.psr.org/assets/pdfs/body-count.pdf (the full study that the article quotes from. If you really want to get into the information, you've got to read it. It's got a spin on it, and then the reporter spun that spin. So, a lot of stuff to sort through.)

 

[ms spock]

I will read those reports when I get this last 12500 words done @joeylittle. Thanks for those.

So given all this how many deaths of Muslims would there be from the recent Afghanistan and Iraq wars? What would be a number that is credible?