Cptsd Vs Ptsd

[lostforgottensoul]

Why do people keep saying that?

Longitivity and the average age, I'd think. I was going back and thinking about having developmental issue as possible a part of CPTSD but stopped and reminded myself longitivity can start after 18. But it was a thought.

 

[Gs172003]

I

Thanks! :D

searched for it, said it wasn't found. Bummer

 

[Gs172003]

Longitivity and the average age, I'd think. I was going back and thinking about having devel...

If it doesn't say it I wouldn't add it. It would just invalidate people that are not children and have it. Not to mention that one of the protocol for having it on what I posted was prolonged care of someone that is sick. I don't think children as a whole do that.

 

[Gs172003]

Here's a good one

Dead Link Removed

 

[lostforgottensoul]

If it doesn't say it I wouldn't add it.

I don't/didn't add it. You asked why people keeping saying that so I answered what I thought as to why people might keep saying that.

 

[Gs172003]

I don't/didn't add it. You asked why people keeping saying that so I answered what I thought...

Ahhh gotcha

 

[Friday]

I read it. Nowhere did it say onset in childhood. Why do people keep saying that?

Hole in one ;)

This is part of why I gave up / struck cPTSD off my list of things to research a couple years ago. (And why the ICD proposed Dx is really interesting to me). There was no common definition, and the way it was used by most people was shorthand for childhood or developmental trauma, regardless of whether that trauma was complex or not, and regardless of what the effects were. The whole thing was hugely frustrating. No definition = people (including random therapists) could makeup whatever they wanted, claim it as fact, and take that ball and run any way they wanted with it. :confused: :banghead: Chaos.

The history of the cPTSD proposal is really interesting, IMO. But it's been an absolute dog fight with people in different camps all lobbying for their idea of what it is ... And at that point my brain shuts off. Nope. Cheque please! Get back with me when you can agree on whether Blue + Red = Purple or Yellow + Blue = Green. Because right now, you're adding purple & green (and everything else!) together, so all I see is brown.

Two things to keep in mind are that psych is a baby-science, and Dx's are trying to describe us, rather than the other way around. A lot like 3 blind men trying to describe the elephant. So it's all a bit of a process, and we are in early days.

I've gotten snarked at in the past for having "faith" in the DSM (or ICD). No. Not really. They're living documents, at the very beginning of a journey, much like the initial maps explorers make / largely inaccurate, especially compared to future understanding. What they do, however, is provide common definition. Without which there's just chaos; as blue+red=green to some people, and purple to others, and everything is just brown & clear as mud.

***

You might find this whole thread, and specifically the post I'm linking, an interesting read. The thread is on complex trauma, the post loosely on complex trauma vs cPTSD vs PTSD & certain kinds of trauma schtuff. What Is Complex Trauma?

 

[Gs172003]

Hole in one ;)

This is part of why I gave up / struck cPTSD off my list of things to research a couple...

I've read it. Here's an example of my life just as a baseline. Some may consider this "normal life" some may consider this " holy crap"

I don't remember my childhood pre 5 but from what I have been told my dad was a piece of crap. Alcoholic, duis, smacked us and mom around, etc .Grandma was a prostitute, I was supposedly beaten up at the age of 3 by an 8 year old, and that was before mom left and we moved up here and moved in with her parents.
Grandma sucked. She was mean. Especially to me. We were made to share bathwater, she smacked the crap out of me for vomiting at the table, and we were only allowed in the house for meals during the summer and to go to bed. ( I'm doing the cliff notes version) the day after my 13th birthday I was put in the hospital for being suicidal.

Mom bought a house when I was 14. At that time I had a 35 year old man drive me around and tell me all the places he wanted to do things to me. Nothing happened. I used him as an excuse for one of my many runaways . I was found every time. At 16 became anorexic. I've battled eating disorders ever since.

At 16 I got my first job. Within a week my boss and coworkers took me to the lake and got me drunk. I didn't realize that wasn't ok until yesterday. My mom was mad. I wasn't there a month. Also realized yesterday I've never had a professional type relationship with a supervisor. Ever. ( ok now I'm rambling)

Anywhooo ... Every male I've been with has sucked. Got pregnant at 19. Married the guy. He didn't hit me but had a violent temper and controlled my every move. I wasn't allowed to go anywhere with my friends. If I was out with my mom more than an hour he called around to see where I was .Etc etc. Then I met hubby #2. Waaaaay worse. Not even going to talk about him. #1 fathered all my kids. I didn't get away from him until they were all 18. He disowned the oldest when she was 15.
Met #3 at the end of #2. Found put #2 abused my kids once i left him. Started out good. Last ten years have been bad .Things are improving. ON TOP OF THAT...

My oldest tried to kill herself and ended up on drugs. She's finally starting to get better. My 16 year old ended up pregnant. Love that little girl.my son is a recluse.
Lost three family members in five years one to suicide. Watched the first two take their last breaths.
My husband was laid off three times.

How am I still here?


My point is. Who defines complex?


Sorry this is so long. I realized some of this came off wrong. I wish I didn't write it but I don't want it wrong either.

 

[Gs172003]

And now I feel like crap.

 

[joeylittle]

Some have said (online, not here in the forum) that one gets Dx'd Borderline if the T. doesn't "like" the patient and Dx'd C-PTSD is s/he does like the patient. In other words, it seems unscientific to draw a line between Borderline and C-PTSD based on rapport or personal chemistry.

I have a feeling that the individuals who claim their borderline diagnosis was because the therapist didn't 'like' them - probably are dealing with borderline personality disorder, or extreme C-PTSD. Assuming it's relationship-based and the T is rejecting them is a hallmark of the Borderline personality world view. It's also a manifestation of the traits regarding persistent distrust, persistent assumption of being 'different' in the negative, persistent stigma.

I don't believe the majority of therapists assign diagnoses out of like or dislike. That's a level of personalization that isn't sustainable. Also, a diagnosis of a personality disorder doesn't really improve access to different levels of insurance - so, I find it hard to see that there's a negative motivation.

I do think that when the C-PTSD diagnosis is finally fully accepted, there will be a shift in how many people are given a PTSD plus borderline diagnosis, and how many become C-PTSD, no borderline. It'll be years before that can be quantified, but it will be interesting.

DSM will also always have a slightly different focus as its insurance led to an extent. That isn't the case in Europe.

Actually, no. The DSM sets the parameters for how insurance operates; they provide the codes. And the codes are also incorporated into the ICD. There's no incentive for the DSM to cater to insurance companies.

The biggest difficulty they had when testing the criteria on professionals was to stop them leading with severity of experiences and to look at the reactions.

That is super-interesting.

All I really care about is for there to be a better treatment protocol in place for those who aren't very well served with the existing one. Far too many who may fall into this category don't get treatment that helps for a very long time or ever. That's what diagnoses are there for. Other than that they are merely constructs that fit present best possible knowledge.

Yes. I really wanted to say yes to this.

Nowhere did it say onset in childhood. Why do people keep saying that?

I honestly think that it's much more common, and much easier to grasp. If someone did a study on longevity in trauma and, say, individuals who have survived prolonged exposure to spousal abuse - or war, or refugee status, abduction/torture - they'd probably see the same things. But I think since every human has a childhood, and the sphere of influence is contained, it's easier to compare/contrast childhoods and compare/contrast the abused child to the non-abused child, leading to it being easier to study longevity of abuse.

Not everyone has a war, refugee, kidnap, torture experience. Or a spousal abuse experience.

Childhood is closer to the developmental 'blank slate'. I'm not sure I'm articulating this well. It's not a defense of CPTSD only belonging in childhood, just examining what makes it more common to look towards, in terms of providing comparison study.

Edit to add: :hug: for you @Zoogal.

 

[Gs172003]

I'm sorry to hijack the thread. I'm sorry

 

[Abstract]

Hi JoeyLittle. I don't think I articulated what I meant re DSM and insurance very well. Will come back if I can find the words!

I was trying to remember more specifically about the validity testing I read - its been rolling around in my head. I hope I'm not just recovering one of the links posted. I'll see if I can flesh out what I said before.

The way I remember it (rusty so please forgive if I get it wrong) when tested the criteria successfully separated BPD from CPTSD and they explain some of the differences like this: The core abandonment issues and unstable self concept that come with BPD aren't a factor and they propose there rather being a fixed negative self concept and an avoidance or inability to have relationships. Overly independent rather than the tendency towards dependence (and the push and pull) we usually see with BPD. Obviously these are not the only factors. It is also possible to be co-morbid and have both (as with many diagnoses). They successfully demonstrated the validity of that too. They are saying this area needs more work long term as far as I can remember.

It allows for resilience so does not mean that if there is extreme and long term trauma it automatically = CPTSD. Its not a description or label for the severity or length of trauma. Its a little like PTSD in that there needs to be a baseline match with criteria (PTSD) and then a match to the further criteria about reactions. Its an experience and then reaction requirement rather than a description of the severity of someones trauma.

When they tested how good professionals were at diagnosing correctly according to the criteria the most common mistake they made was diagnosing some with CPTSD because they had such severe trauma when they actually didn't fit all the reaction criteria. Some with resilience (maybe social, parental or other factors) may come out of extreme situations with PTSD rather than CPTSD. Others with moderate amounts of trauma (and possible genetic and other resilience factors weighed against them) may come under CPTSD. The majority of times it seems people fall where you would expect them too though. Single adult trauma more likely = PTSD. Severe multiple trauma and particularly childhood sexual and physical abuse more likely = CPTSD. I guess personality is being developed in childhood so that is no big surprise. There are so many things that leaves out though like severity of the experience, duration and 1000 other factors. Each person and situation is individual so its good they are leaving space for that.

The other thing I found interesting is that CPTSD didn't correlate with severity of PTSD symptoms (these were more evenly spread throughout) but did correlate with degree of dysfunction or impairment in life.