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Relationship What Am I Doing Wrong? Outsider's Perspective Needed...

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oh yes, can't forget about those abandonment issues. I can definitely relate to that! Yes, it is getting to the point that removing yourself from the situation could feel like then it will all be over and he will leave or maybe even you will leave. And that may very well happen. It's scary.

But I don't think it would come to that even if they will require the space for an extended period of time. I'm finding that space is good for me as well. Helps me to calm down and put things into perspective. I need to see a therapist too! :)
 
That apart of relationships all around. Respecting each other's boundaries.
You can't control others a...
Yes, your entire response really resonates!

It's true, if he leaves, he leaves. I guess when there is some fear around abandonment it takes a little extra work to get there. But working on it! This convo definitely helped immensely so far!
 
At the end of the day, I'm afraid of becoming co-dependent. Maybe I misunderstand what that means or maybe there really are only two choices: become co-dependent or leave?


To be honest, to me it kinda sounds like you already are co-dependent, if I understood the situation correctly. If you are contacting him in any way after a fight, after he said hurtful things to you, in the hopes that he will apologize, you're already falling into a co-dependent trap. If he's saying really nasty things to you, you should not be contacting him at all afterwards, and instead waiting for him to come around. But instead it sounds like you're contacting him in the hopes he'll apologize, and maybe that's why he freaks out about this -- because he senses that you want him to apologize and he hasn't calmed down enough to do that yet.

It does sound like he behaves like a jerk, but you're sort of setting yourself up to be walked all over just by contacting him the way you are.
 
I experience something similar. We will be doing a task together, I will do something "wrong" (which usually means not in accordance with Australian Army Infantry Corp SOPs - hardly surprising as I have never served!), he will then call me every name under the sun, swear at me and insist that I do "this shit" on purpose to push his buttons. If I try to tell him that is not acceptable to me it escalares the temper tantrum. If I wait, say an hour, and try to raise it with him then it will re-escalate things (like Ron Burgundy fast) and he will say things like "If you don't want to be called a f*cking idiot don't act like a f*cking idiot, you f*cking idiot!". If I wait a few days to talk to him to be sure he is calm, he then says I am holding a grudge and I if I want to hold onto every "little thing" he does wrong then maybe he is not the man for me. Depending on his mood I then either get "I'm sorry for being a horrible person. I should leave. You would be happier without me." or "I told you I'm a c*nt of a man. If you don't like it - leave."

For me, this verbal abuse and no way to talk about it, address it and try to change it is THE major issue in our relationship. Maybe for him the major issue in our relationship is my failure to learn the appropriate SOPs! ;)
 
His issue that "I don't let him calm down" has now hijacked our entire problem. He will somewhat apologize for what he said to me before, but that's NEVER the problem. The problem, of course, is me not letting him calm down.

I think the problem is rather, he's being out of control and out of line + he can't calm himself down. So why am I taking the blame for this?

I can't seem to figure this one out. What am I doing wrong?

If I'm reading things correctly?

He's catching himself get angry & lashing out & stopping himself.

And you're mad because you want to continue the fight? Either right then and there and put answer to the things he's just realized are out of line, and has stopped, or even days later?

***

It just seems like a massive waste of time. There's no defense to the things he's said, and he knows they're f*cked up, which is why he stopped. But you want to drag each individual piece out, are in fact clinging to them for days? Seems like a better use of time to work on recognizing when he's getting mad earlier, so he can stop even earlier or you can call half earlier, rather than dragging the very thing that is the problem around beating it like a dead horse.

How do these conversations even go?

Horrible thing! Shit. I'm out of line. I need to stop and go calm down.
You said this horrible thing!
I know that's why I stopped myself. I'm trying to calm down, here.
You said this horrible thing!
I know! That's why I stopped myself! Would you let me calm down?
This. Horrible. Thing.
I KNOW!
THIS HORRIBLE THING!
f*ck off.
Days later.
You said this horrible thing.
I know.
Horrible thing.
I KNOW!
I have the right to defend myself against this horrible thing!
f*ck. Off.
Rinse. Lather. Repeat.

IDK. Personally, I don't put up with certain kinds of verbal lashing out, period. Because -for right or wrong- I take things spoken in anger as truth. Unvarnished. That's something about me that's not going to change, because I'm completely uninterested in changing it. So if it crosses my line? I'm done. Other kinds? I'm perfectly fine with. (Hey asshole! Check yourself! And then I carry on with my day). This is part of why I don't trust anyone who hasn't gotten furious with me, yet. Military asshole ripping? No problemo. Either I've earned it (in which case, shrug), or it's f*cking hilarious (awwww. Aren't you cute? Because you are so f*cking wrong, but just look atcha! Going off like a frog in a sock. Awwwww.), or payback's a bitch ( :sneaky: ). Other kinds? Nope. No way. Feel free to continue just so I can get an accurate picture of how you really think&feel, but we're through as soon as you're done. Anything extra will just help me feel better about leaving.

If it were ME having a version of that conversation above? And I've done it. I'm not fighting with them. I'm fighting with myself. Because I'm done. I don't give a f*ck that they're working on it, or the process, if I'm like a dog with a bone over the *words* said. That they were said at all. That they now demand satisfaction.

Like I said, though. That's me & my biases & inclinations.
 
Horrible thing! Shit. I'm out of line. I need to stop and go calm down.
You said this horrible thing!
I know that's why I stopped myself. I'm trying to calm down, here.
You said this horrible thing!
I know! That's why I stopped myself! Would you let me calm down?
This. Horrible. Thing.
I KNOW!
THIS HORRIBLE THING!
f*ck off.
Days later.
You said this horrible thing.
I know.
Horrible thing.
I KNOW!
I have the right to defend myself against this horrible thing!
f*ck. Off.
Rinse. Lather. Repeat.

:roflmao: @Friday - do you have my house bugged? This ^^^ for serious is my life!

I wish I could get to the - "aw you're so funny going off about ab-so-lute-ly nuthin!" point but I'm still stuck at the "is that what you REALLY think of me? Because, if so my friend then I am done diddly un twisting myself into pretzels trying to help you or be with you in any way shape or form". Its the absolutely cruelty of the remarks and the personal attacks that I really struggle with. You wanna mouth off and call me a f*cking idiot - yeah I can probably ignore that. But tell me that I'm just like my mother and no wonder my father drinks so much... yeah. I'm going to still feel like shit about that the next day when you want to cozy up for a kiss. And then it's MY fault again for holding a grudge????

I guess in my world there are certain "below the belt" blows that just. do. not. get used in an argument. I would NEVER say to him "well maybe your children wouldn't be such no hopers if you had been around more when they were little instead of away on deployment" because I KNOW that is a sore spot. But he's happy to dance an Irish jig on my sore spots. Sigh!
 
But instead it sounds like you're contacting him in the hopes he'll apologize, and maybe that's why he freaks out about this -- because he senses that you want him to apologize and he hasn't calmed down enough to do that yet.
You may very well be right that I've already fallen into the co-dependent trap. When I contact him it's not so much wanting an apology from him, it's trying to rectify and clarify something he got immensely ticked off by, as well as having my feelings heard. A bit like seeing that there has been a misunderstanding, paired with wanting to explain to him that there's no talking to me like that. But you are right, a less co-dependent reaction would be to hang up, seethe in silence, and let him come to me. It's hard though, waiting around like that for a situation to resolve - it doesn't seem healthy or fair either.

But you want to drag each individual piece out, are in fact clinging to them for days?
Haha, Friday, that convo you played out made me chuckle. Nah, that's not really how our conversations go. To be fair, he doesn't call me names or says one horrible thing that I get ticked off by and have to take him to task for again and again, it's a little more complicated than that. And he also doesn't really stop himself and remove himself. If you have the patience, here's a rundown of how our conversation will go. It's okay if it's too much to read...it's helpful enough for me to just write it out.

This is an example of a convo we had a few weeks ago, the first of its kind - so there is no history as to me being controlling or surveilling him, it came out of the complete blue. He is out with his work colleagues, celebrating a promotion (yay!), and it's getting late. FYI, we're long distance and constantly (and I mean constantly) texting and updating each other about what we're up to:

It's 12.00 am, I'm ready to go to bed, haven't heard from him since around 7 pm, which is very odd.
ME (text): Hey, hope you're having a good night. It's weird not to hear from you.
Nothing for 15 mins (which is weird, because he's glued to his phone)
Me (text): Hello?
Nothing
15 mins later I call, worried and pretty weirded out
Doesn't pick up
I call again
Finally, he picks up
Him: Hi, yes, I'm just leaving the bar now
Me: Oh, hm, okay. What's going on?
Him: (Snidely) Nothing is going on, Hojay, I just wanted to have a good night
Me: Yes, of course you should celebrate, but can you understand I'm a bit weirded out. In the 2 years we've been together you've never not written this late at night and/or not replied when I've written you. I was worried.
Him: Oh really, really Hojay, you're worried? How about when you were gone for work the last 2 weeks and didn't write me and [insert deflection, accusations]
Me: That's not what happened. And I think that's an unfair comparison, and I also didn't know that hurt your feelings. But either way, it's weirding me out even more now that you're getting irritated and deflecting to what I have done.
Him: IM NOT DEFLECTING, YOUR BLAMING ME FOR SOMETHING YOU HAVE DONE YOURSELF [ANGER, SCREAMING, DEFLECTION!]
Me: I'm not blaming you, I was just weirded out, can't you understand?
Him: CANT YOU UNDERSTAND HOW I FEEL, IF I JUST WANT TO HAVE A GOOD NIGHT, AND NOW THIS AGAIN?!
Me: What again?
Him: NOW I HAVE TO HAVE A PANIC ATTACK AGAIN
Me: I'm sorry, but I don't think that's my fault. But let's breathe together and calm down. (A lot of training went into me dropping the bait and focusing on him calming down.)
Him: NO, YOU'RE JUST BLAMING ME, I JUST WANTED TO HAVE ONE GOOD NIGHT, SCREAMING, YELLING, ANGER, "I'M DONE!" I CANT DO THIS ANYMORE. AGAIN, AGAIN, NOW THIS AGAIN.
Me: I'm sorry you're having a panic attack now. I think this is about something else, and you're getting worked up about something that you're misunderstanding.
Him: NO YOU ALWAYS BLAME ME, AND NOW THIS AGAIN. [SCREAMING, RANTING, ACCUSATIONS]
Me: I don't think it's fair to make me responsible for your panic attacks.
Him: I'M NOT BLAMING YOU
Me: It sounds like it.
Him: SCREAMING, RANTING. YOU NEVER LET ME CALM DOWN. Hangs up.

And hour later, I write, "Are you okay?" or, if his "I'm done" sounded particularly worrying, I'll call, and check if he's stable enough or if I should call someone. Me contacting him is, sooner or later, interpreted as not letting him calm down. Okay....

Next day or a few days later, he's calmed down. Maybe he says, I'm sorry for flipping out. I say, well, it's not okay, but I do understand.
Me: But do you now see why I felt the way I felt, and that I was a bit weirded out?
Him: Well, Hojay, the problem is that you don't let me calm down.
Me: I think the problem of me not letting you calm down comes after you have flipped your lid at me, so maybe we should talk about that first?
Him: ANGER, YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ME, NOBODY UNDERSTANDS ME, ME ME ME ME ME ME. YOU NEVER LET ME CALM DOWN.

So here I am, getting blamed for not letting him calm down (in a conversation he himself engaged with and escalated) having to talk about how that's the main problem, while getting no real conversation about the fact that he majorly flipped his lid and deflected. Never mind my ACTUAL problem and weird feeling about him not getting in touch or responding to me that night. Maybe I did overreact and wasn't super pleasant about a situation that meant nothing (him not getting in touch,) but hell if that's not a normal relationship tiff that doesn't need to turn into THIS!

It's not about getting his apology. It's about being heard and having my feelings and perspective treated with respect, while also not being asked to take responsibility for his panic attacks. Even if I'm wrong about something, even if I overreacted, it just can't be that his issue overshadows the things he does that damage our relationship and that perpetuate the problem.

Man, felt kind of good to write that out. This is helping. Thank you for your patience...if you got this far.
 
It seems like there are some major unresolved issues in your relationship that neither of you have dealt with. I say that just judging by the example of a conversation you posted above -- it's obvious from that that he has some major resentment going on, and you keep stubbornly trying to force him to discuss relationship problems that he doesn't want/isn't ready to discuss. Yes, he needs to take responsibility for the hurtful things he says and he shouldn't blame you for having panic attacks. But at the same time, if you are calling him while he's out at the bar and trying to get into the nitty gritty of the relationship .... well, to me that's just bizarre. That's just not the right time to try to make him understand anything, even if you are worried. You're just setting yourself up for an argument when you do that, and it almost comes off like you WANT the argument and that's why you're doing it .... like maybe you have built-up resentment that you want to deal with, but he's not ready for it. The convo you posted above really isn't that different from the example @Friday posted, to be honest. It's the same dynamic -- him explicitly telling you he needs to calm down and you trying to force him to "understand" your side when he's obviously not ready to. It doesn't matter that he's being irrational and behaving like a jerk -- from the sound of it, he KNOWS he's being irrational and behaving like a jerk. But you can't force someone to behave the way you want them to when you want them to -- it's up to him to figure it out and correct the behavior. You're just going to drive yourself crazy at the rate you're going.
 
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