Best least expensive raw meat diet for a dog?

[Friday]

he only purpose it has is for an animal that resists eating bone at first.

And for those dogs prone to punctured stomachs & intestines.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Another thing to mention is kibble and combine raw is a bad idea. Animals can handled the bacteria in raw meat unless there is also sugar in their diet which comes from kibble. The kibble raw combo can feed the bacteria that would otherwise easily be handled by the gut and cause bacteria overgrowth leading to runny stools.

How do you make the switch then? Almost all start with a little raw and most kibble and then start increasing the raw and decreasing the kibble until they are only on raw. All the videos I have seen do that. What is your opinion on the best way to switch off of kibble when that time comes?

ETA: And thank you about gound bone. Everyone seemed to make it necessary along with whole meaty bones. I do intend on putting in ground egg shells.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

dogs prone to punctured stomachs & intestines.

?

Dog's don't have that problem unless the bone is cooked. Chopper gets bone now and in 2 yrs had never had an issue. I refuse to give him rawhind as its dangerous so he gets real beef and pork bones and deer and elk antlers.

 

[Friday]

Dog's don't have that problem unless the bone is cooked.

I'll be sure to inform the vet schools that they can stop teaching those surgeries, then. As well as to tell all the bird hunting dogs who wash out of training for gulp-gulp instead of retrieving, and end up in emergency surgery, that they're just making a fuss over nothing and should stop bleeding stomach acid & poop into their abdominal cavities, now.

FFS, even wolves can die of splintered avian bone, or long bones that fracture weirdly, instead of round. And they've got cast iron GI tracts. Some dog breeds share that trait and can eat just about anything as long as it's fresh, others are prone to all kinds of problems. Some of which include tissuepaper thin membranes & either weak or over active smooth muscle, others limited mucosal or excessive acid, stenosis, or are prone to torsion & blockage. Meanwhile others have evolved to being more scavenger than carnivore, and can't actually digest fresh foods very well, and need things partially broken down by rotting or heat/cooking/acid (by eating it, puking it back up, and eating the puke a few hours later).

My last dog was a Labrador; which meant he was both prone to PICA (we lucked out that he ate fabric, rather than rocks or wood) and didn't have an internal gauge telling him when to stop eating, nor was able to judge the content of what he was eating. Most breeds & individuals are naturally self limiting / they'll only each so much of certain nutrients, others if given free access and no limited quantity will eat themselves to either stomach rupture or toxicity. We had to very carefully gauge intake and percentages. Our Huskies, meanwhile? Whole bones? Anything less than 9-18 inches long they'd swallow whole, rather than grinding, if the mood struck them. Huskies are known for gulping even 15lb salmon whole, and can easily gulp gulp all kinds of things that aren't good for them. And thank god when they ripped the ribs off of the hanging deer, green stick fracturing them in the process, our vet wasn't of the opinion that dogs don't get punctured guts from uncooked bones. :rolleyes:

Look Lost, I'm a proponent of raw diets in general. As I said, our animals in my family have almost always been fed raw. So this is over 30 years of actually doing what you're considering doing. Times approximate 40 people, and collectively scores of dogs, of many many many different breeds. This isn't a new/exciting & isn't it wonderful & nothing ever goes wrong if you don't want it to thing for me. This is just a very normal thing. With upsides and downsides. One of which is knowing that not all dogs are the same, just because they're dogs. While individuals always vary, there tend to be strong breed-trends & breed-traits. In GI-tracts as well as appearance, temperament, & behavior.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I'll be sure to inform the vet schools that they can stop teaching those surgeries, then.

First of all vets push Science Diet which is THE WORST food out there. I can go there if you want. Vets in my experience have super low knowledge of proper nutition. That said, if the dog gets COOKED chicken bone then that is possible and those surgeries are needed. Owners do not do enough research about proper nutition. I have poured months of constant research into this and also plan to watch him carefully with each bone I give him, as well as his stool and any sign that something isn't agreeing with him.

But, as I said, he has gotten real bones from the day I got him and he does not seem to have any issue with small pieces. He chews them up and has never even hacked up one.

As well as to tell all the bird hunting dogs who wash out of training for gulp-gulp instead of retrieving, and end up in emergency surgery, that they're just making a fuss over nothing and should stop bleeding stomach acid & poop into their abdominal cavities, now.

The intestines is very dangerous for a dog thus if you are gutting an animal for your dog you must take out the intestines. I am not going to be feeding an entire animal to my dog.

I will stop here. If you are against raw feeding then you are welcomed to that opinion. Mine differs. I am not going to just give him a chicken bone (or any bone) without watching him and I am looking to find a way to include ground bone for that exact reason. If raw feeding doesn't work then it doesn't but there is MASSIVE scienctific evidence that it is the most nutitrious food for a dog. You disagree. I hear you. No need to push that any further. I am looking for tips and tricks about raw feeding, not to be talked out of it. He ALREADY gets bones, one of which he bit in half in one bite. He has never had any issue with it at all and any sharp and simi sharp pieces I threw out. I am responsible in everything I do with him. This will be the same.

 

[Friday]

If you are against raw feeding then you are welcomed to that opinion. Mine differs.

As I said here in my 1st post

Our animals have almost always been fed a (mostly*) raw diet. It's just normal in my family.

And again in my 3rd

I'm a proponent of raw diets in general. As I said, our animals in my family have almost always been fed raw. So this is over 30 years of actually doing what you're considering doing.

First of all vets push Science Diet which is THE WORST food out there. I can go there if you want. Vets in my experience have super low knowledge of proper nutition.

Sounds like you need better vets, then. Ours don't push Science Diet, nor any specific brand of dog food, nor do they have a low knowledge about nutrition.

but there is MASSIVE scienctific evidence that it is the most nutitrious food for a dog. You disagree. I hear you.

No. You haven't heard me, because I've never disagreed with that. I made a suggestion / cautioned you in my first post based off of feeding raw my whole life -until I found myself in the position you are now. Having a large working dog (not a lawn ornament or dog-in-a-box) with serious nutritional needs, and being economically unstable.

I am looking for tips and tricks about raw feeding, not to be talked out of it.

I made a suggestion, based on experience, then dropped it & joined in in the rest of the conversation. Since it's a subject I really adore. Again, proponent of. Life long practitioner of.

Being aware of the downsides of a thing, is not being against it. It's being informed. Gut punctures are faaaaar from guaranteed with whole bone raw diets. They're fairly uncommon, actually, but they do happen. Even with cast iron bellies, and every precaution taken. But some breeds are known for them, so people take steps. @Justmehere said she thought the only reason was for bone resistant dogs, and maybe in her group that's the only reason anyone there has had, but gut punctures happens to be another. So does convenience, since bone meal is really easy to obtain in most places, as well as minding percentages for dogs who don't naturally limit, and for dogs who have weak dentition, and probably a few other things, but I hadn't had coffee, yet.

But I'm more than happy to bow out.

 

[Justmehere]

My own dog came to me with toys and uncooked bones in her belly, despite being in good care, and we have almost had to do surgery twice more. There is reason to be cautious. It's not an all or nothing thing where all uncooked bones are all good or all bad for all dogs.

My own dog gets kibble with raw food snacks when I'm able to afford it - not just financially, but in terms of stress levels too. If she gets any GI issues from her raw food, guess who stays home with her? Me.

If I have to work or do anything else, I can't risk my SD having GI issues from raw food, so I have to have her adapted to be able to sustain on kibble too. The kibble is high protein, and she gets fish oil too. It fits for her life as a service dog on the go who needs high quality food to do well.

My vet has never pushed any particular brand of dog food and knows all about the pros and cons of raw food diets. My own vet has fed her own dogs raw food. She's fine with kibble or raw food. She's more concerned about balanced nutrition than how a dog gets that balanced nutrition, and my vet and I talked about it quite a bit. Most vets actually get considerable training in nutrition. It's simply untrue they get zero training. My source: the course curriculum for the typical small animal vet (I have a friend who just obtained her DVM.)

I think you are approaching this with a lot of black and white thinking. Even the fact that you see others as being all for you to all against you is in line with that. You are discussing a lot of all or nothing kind of approaches... but ignoring the grey areas. With all the other transitions and stressors in your life, and as a fellow service dog user, I'd suggest going gradually and having slow gentle approaches. As as a matter of recovery from PTSD, try to avoid the black and white / all or nothing approaches.

It's my suggestion, take it or leave it, to try some raw food snacks for awhile, give it some time, and see if it works for you and your service dog. If it's just a daily snack, and life circumstances change, then you and your dog will be able to more quickly adapt. This may be especially important if there is a decent chance you will be hospitalized and want to convince a hospital to let you keep your dog with you while hospitalized. They will not understand a raw food diet. They will see it as an infection risk. A hospital would not allow me to feed my own dog anything but kibble. Many pro-raw food materials discuss the risks of illness from dogs on raw food diets to humans who are immunocomprimised or elderly - and this is part of what hospitals are thinking about. A major legal battle over dog food is not what I wanted to deal with while also dealing with severe illness and being in the hospital. So it helped that my dog could sustain on a kibble diet while hospitalized without the expense and GI adjustment (and nutritional concerns) of a sudden switch to a 100 percent freeze dried food diet.

I'd also suggest taking what advice here, and elsewhere online, fits your needs the best, and ignoring the rest.

Good luck!

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Ours don't push Science Diet, nor any specific brand of dog food, nor do they have a low knowledge about nutrition.

My vet has never pushed any particular brand of dog food

Every single vet I have been to both with my dogs and my two cats (13 yrs in 2 States). One sent me home with Science Diet kitten after my cats first booster shots or whatever they are called. Their shleves are lined with Science Diet presciption food and what they "prescibe" when your animal needs special food. And none of them understood animal (cat or dog) nutrition AT ALL. I researched cat nutition needs first and brought that to them and they were CLUELESS. Same with dog nutition and Chopper has been to several vets.

So, in my experience, vets know jack about animal nutiotion.

I think you are approaching this with a lot of black and white thinking. Even the fact that you see others as being all for you to all against you is in line with that. You are discussing a lot of all or nothing kind of approaches... but ignoring the grey areas. With all the other transitions and stressors in your life, and as a fellow service dog user, I'd suggest going gradually and having slow gentle approaches. As as a matter of recovery from PTSD, try to avoid the black and white / all or nothing approaches.

No I am not. I am not 100% deadset on this and Chopper has not one ounce of raw food yet. But I have dedicated months of research in this. It was @Friday's tone of "lets tell the vets to stop doing surgies" that made me upset. I can very well take pros and cons of raw. I have already weighed them. I have already considered everything. I did ask for opinions but he already gets bones and already does fine with bones. I will watch him in case something does happen. I will make sure he gets thick bones. I will take away small pieces. And I will include ground bone. That's black and white?

And punctured stomaches and intestines that vets see aren't all about raw bones!

try some raw food snacks for awhile, give it some time, and see if it works for you and your service dog. If it's just a daily snack, and life circumstances change, then you and your dog will be able to more quickly adapt.

Plan on it. This is what worried me:

Another thing to mention is kibble and combine raw is a bad idea. Animals can handled the bacteria in raw meat unless there is also sugar in their diet which comes from kibble. The kibble raw combo can feed the bacteria that would otherwise easily be handled by the gut and cause bacteria overgrowth leading to runny stools.

So I am being told here that feeding kibble and adding raw as a snack is a bad idea. He doesn't get snacks and I would reduce his kibble but still.

I posted this to get some ideas, tips, and so forth that feed raw. Not the cons. I have already weighed those. I will be going into it slow. I will be watching closesly. That's already a plan BUT he needs a food change. He doesn't eat ANY kibble. I have to stand there saying "eat.....eat.....eat". He needs a change and another kibble isn't that and I DO NOT want him on wet dog food again.

A service dog team on youtube named Service Dog Colt feeds raw. She has 10 million videos on it. She feeds freeze dried when in the hospital. Her dog is 4 I believe and has been on raw his whole life with zero problems. Many service dog teams feed raw with zero problems.

So, I am not disregurding these posts but understand that I have spent months researching and months weighing pros and cons, researching possible issues, looking up pricing of homemade and premade, pros and cons of those, asking questions to those that successfully feed raw and those that don't feed raw. And asking here. I am not going into this black and white.

Getting back on topic @Fadeaway, if kibble and raw together is a bad idea, how would you go about introducing raw and easing into raw?

 

[NoWhereKnowWhere]

I've seen so much conflicting arguments for how to transition. One thing I saw said to feed green tripe for 2 weeks to get the guy bacteria up to spec then go on to raw. I saw some like yourself that says to feed normal food and raw tapering down to just raw. Most people say don't ever feed cooked and raw together.

We just went straight on to raw I kept a close eye on her and her poo:rolleyes: she honestly took to it like a duck to water. I never had any issues she just thrived.

Chicken bone is a go to for me because it's bendy and not too hard. The thing with bully's is their jaws are sooo strong sometimes they can break their teeth on harder bone. So beef bone should be so big they can't fit the whole thing in their mouth (a knuckle or something) so they aren't chomping down on it but more grinding at the side of it.

You will soon find everyone who feeds raw is an expert but everyone contradicts each other. It was a nightmare for me all the research. It's hard to make an informed decision when all the information contradicts. It was worth it because she seems a lot happier and healthier on raw.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

You will soon find everyone who feeds raw is an expert but everyone contradicts each other. It was a nightmare for me all the research. It's hard to make an informed decision when all the information contradicts.

Ah, yes, I have already seen that in researching and even here on the thread. Its maddening!

The thing with bully's is their jaws are sooo strong sometimes they can break their teeth on harder bone. So beef bone should be so big they can't fit the whole thing in their mouth (a knuckle or something) so they aren't chomping down on it but more grinding at the side of it.

Yeah, currently he gets the real big knuckle bones. I bought a thigh bone, I believe, once. It was about as thick as my arm. That's what he bit in half with one bite. No more of those. Knuckle bones there after and yeah, he can't get the whole thing in his mouth.

What about chicken bones and rib bones? I heard those are good sort of recreational bones. I will be in search for the biggest roundest bones I can. No real long ones like that. He doesn't tear up anything but god is he a chewer! I have to get a special sort of rope toy that is knotted twice. These kind:

Normal rope toys are gone inside of mins. I also have to shop the dollar section or make damn sure the toy is super strong or take it away after a bit or its gone.

He LOVES antlers. They are expensive but last forever! It's a dream come true for a pittie momma lol.

We just went straight on to raw I kept a close eye on her and her poo:rolleyes: she honestly took to it like a duck to water. I never had any issues she just thrived.

That scares me though. I saw the green tripe too. I am not sure he will eat it but they sell in freeze dried that I could add with kibble. Personally this is the first I have heard of not feeding kibble with raw. Everyone that I saw that has made a video on their raw feeding said, if not started right away after the puppies are weaned, then they mixed it or gave a whole drumstick or something with the kibble and just slowly took away the kibble and added in more raw. Green tripe is a good additive to make sure he takes to raw. He does seem to have a sensitive stomach for a dog, which may be the kibble, I'm not sure. But just to be sure he takes to it as well as possible I certianly want to do what I can, you know?

 

[joeylittle]

That said, if the dog gets COOKED chicken bone then that is possible and those surgeries are needed.

Lost, this is just flat out wrong. There's no need to be defensive about shit you don't know. Dogs can get internal punctures from raw bone, the end. Obstructions, perforations. It's a thing to be aware of. Here's a story you might find instructive: A raw bone caused a perforated bowel and peritonitis in our dog: The symptoms and outcome * DOGthusiast: for dog enthusiasts with active dogs

Every single vet I have been to both with my dogs and my two cats (13 yrs in 2 States)... Their shelves are lined with Science Diet presciption food and what they "prescibe" when your animal needs special food. And none of them understood animal (cat or dog) nutrition AT ALL. I researched cat nutition needs first and brought that to them and they were CLUELESS. Same with dog nutition and Chopper has been to several vets.

Did it ever cross your mind that were picking bad vets? Or you just kept going to vets over and over that knew nothing about nutrition? Not all vets are clueless; sometimes you need to hunt a bit to find the good ones. They are worth it, because the veterinary school of the internet isn't always the most reliable source of information.

My main point is: it's OK to be wrong and to learn new things. It's important to be extra-aware of risk factors for your animals when you know you don't have a lot of surplus $ to handle medical emergencies for them. And insisting that something is impossible when someone has just told you it happened to them is a symptom worth getting under control.

My only advice on raw is, before you invest in a whole set-up including grinder, when you decide to make the switch, I'd echo others suggestion of starting with a quality commercially available raw food. The switch can be tough all on it's own, and focusing on one thing at a time is good. First deal with him switching, then deal with you being able to make your own supply. When factoring cost of making your own, include the gas, car wear and tear (or cab cost), and equipment. You may find that for your area, it's not a big enough savings.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Did it ever cross your mind that were picking bad vets?

10 of them in 2 states? No, that never crossed my mind.

Or you just kept going to vets over and over that knew nothing about nutrition?

No, I actually changed them, often.

And insisting that something is impossible when someone has just told you it happened to them is a symptom worth getting under control.

Where exactly did I say it was impossible? I am echoing the research. I have actually researched this throughly, however, I did say I am taking procaustions just in case. I said that a few times. That doesn't sound to me like I am saying it is impossible. The research says raw bones don't splinter, cooked bones do. I can supply links if you would like. But fine, raw bones spliter. I am taking procautions. And also just said I was going to buy very large round bones. What else would you like?

Can we please get back on topic?

@Fadeaway , here is an article that talks about switching using kibble and reducing it.

Link Removed

That's what @NoWhereKnowWhere was talking about. Contradicting research.

Does anyone know the best place to get green tripe? I don't think I can take it off the stomach myself and there are so many companies. It says Darwin sells it frozen but they don't have a search thing on their site. Not sure if anyone knows the better company to get it from and how (frozen, canned, soft, jerky, topping etc).